Kingdom Rituals

I would like to propose some changes to kingdom rituals. At the moment they are:

1. Very very expensive (hard to launch when at war).
2. Way way too strong, especially barrier. I mean, the strength of barrier is higher than most of the racial or personality traits.

This sorta means that any conflict will start with both sides on a ritual, and given the fact barrier is so strong it simply leads to lower damage generation on both sides.

My suggestion is to KEEP kingdom rituals but significantly lower costs and effects. Get a wider variety of bonuses but significantly nerf them too.

1. Reduce rune costs by 50%.
2. Increase casts needed by 50% (so it's still a mana issue).
3. Make it auto-success, not dependent on guilds.

New Kingdom ritiuals (please make suggestions for names):

Build fortifications: +10% DME
Call to war: +10% DME
To the trenches: -5% enemy gains, -15% defensive casualties
Onslaught: +5% gains, +15% enemy casualties
Move in: -10% attack time
Prosperity: +15% income
Inspire Builders: +10% BE

etc. (please suggestions).

What do you think a reasonable requirement is for completing a ritual in war? Saying it's too expensive isn't really informative, especially when you/we have only experienced a small fraction of the age. What towers% do you think should be necessary is really the question I'm asking.

Autosuccess will almost certainly never happen.

Nerfing them is an option, but giving opponents a way to bring them down is more likely and will significantly improve counterplay options.

I saw zero difficulty casting the ritual. Did it in just a few ticks, again I would say it's people's setup. I mean if you ran a human tact core you will have difficulty completing it. But I thought that was the point to limit humans strengths. Also comes down to where did you invest your science? In production or over load military and pop on your core. I really like ritual being hard for your average traditional setup vs a more hybrid leaning setup. Gives a depth to the game that has been lacking.

I think you misunderstood. It's very much possible to complete them in war. In fact we just did in our last war (well, they surrendered just before we could finish...). The major point is that they're simply way too strong and I simply don't see the need to keep adding buff on buff on buff, further snowballing all the in-game effects. How many layers are we going to keep adding?

Anyways, we're probably better off discussing this in private because I don't have the time/energy atm to write coherent essays.

But as has been said before, and in this thread, there is thought to allow enemy KD to weaken the Ritual, as well they currently display some sort of decay which doesn't actually take place yet. Could it be that once these two things are implemented that your issues are resolved?

I would say DME + GS-like effects is maybe a bit much for Barrier v Onslaught for example, maybe one or the other of those two (DME or GS effect) would also help.

That will simply serve to nerf pure attackers even further, unless they get significant offensive buffs.

how so

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Originally Posted by RattleHead

how so

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His argument will be that the ritual-hurting spells would be targetted to low WPA attackers, which would mean that it is easier to cancel a ritual vs a kd with lots of heavy attackers than hybrids.

That might be ok, but would have to be part of balance between the two. I'm more interested in the cost of putting one up currently. I know some kds have done it in war, others think it's too intensive. The issue of course is the cost curve of now vs later and sizing/etc. We could also look at making the ritual cost driven by median size or something instead of the current method.

Ahh ic, makes sense. But that is more a strategic trade off you need to make for yourself than a mechanical issue, i think. Alternatively I could see casting VS a ritual being more or less the same as casting your own, a high difficulty, high cost spell, not based on relative WPA. As if your wizzies are casting their own 'debuff' Ritual that would counter the enemy's Ritual, as opposed to directly casting the enemy Ritual down.

My current KD has perhaps a dozen people pulling on the rope, and we were able to fly our ritual with about 16h to spare, but that was after having failed one previously.

In war would not be feasible for us I think, but our logistics are the limiting factor, not the cost. But yes time will tell. I would say they should not be easy to cast, especially in War, it should be a bit of a gambit at that point, or else its not a strategic element, it just becomes something you have to do

What about instead of having a targeted counter Ritual, have a warding one that makes you immune to the rituals of the opposing KD?

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Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta

I think you misunderstood. It's very much possible to complete them in war. In fact we just did in our last war (well, they surrendered just before we could finish...). The major point is that they're simply way too strong and I simply don't see the need to keep adding buff on buff on buff, further snowballing all the in-game effects. How many layers are we going to keep adding?

Anyways, we're probably better off discussing this in private because I don't have the time/energy atm to write coherent essays.

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Just to be clear, this comment regarding a discussion in private is misleading. There are no private meetings held with players to discuss potential changes or suggestions. I will reiterate that changes are discussed and decided on by 4 people only (DavidC, JeffT, Bishop, Munk). Suggestions made in the forums or any other medium we have access to where good ideas are presented are always taken into consideration to provide users with what we feel to be the most enjoyable direction for the game to go in. Users should not be misled into thinking that private discussions occur to facilitate changes.

I think the current rituals are fine. Maybe barrier can be reduced (15 or 20% op/spell protection maybe?).

I agree that it is costs can probably be lowered but I think something like a 10% reduction in cost is reasonable, not much more than that given the strength of the rituals.

Also I don't like the idea of having a way to weaken/attack rituals. I feel like the dynamic of choosing a ritual and strategy and dragons to counter your opponents' ritual is more interesting and simpler than adding a counter that will inevitably further serve to complicate choices. Variety is great but sometimes, as Bart said, there are too many layers. He's taken issue with layers of buffs but I'd argue that every buff does not need a counter and that rituals function as their own counters.

Besides, this is the first age with rituals and were like 3 weeks into the age? Way early to discuss changes to the system already and I'd even suggest waiting another age maybe to let people explore the rituals dynamic further - and to give the impression of actual change if and when substantial changes are made. So far they work, and I think changing them too radically / introducing a counter after just 1 age would be less like 'here are changes for age 73' for flavor and variety a more like 'here are a new set of beta features 2 ages in a row enjoy"..

Changes are good and should be designed for flavor/variety and to fix imbalances that need addressing.... Changes just to have a radically different change log are excessive. One age with major features and overhauls at a time please.

I suspect at a minimum for next age we'll add some kind of scaling down to around 15 provinces in a kingdom to make it more attainable for sub-25 kingdoms, even if we do nothing else.

But you're right steel, there's an argument that we should see how it shakes out before making major changes to it.

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Originally Posted by JeffT

I suspect at a minimum for next age we'll add some kind of scaling down to around 15 provinces in a kingdom to make it more attainable for sub-25 kingdoms, even if we do nothing else.

But you're right steel, there's an argument that we should see how it shakes out before making major changes to it.

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IMO KDs should be encourage to grow not to stay small on purpose and what you are suggesting shouldn't happen.

As a leader of a 3 man kingdom rituals are off the table with 100 casts, even if somehow we could make it the cost would not be worth it.

Maybe considder the cast to be 4-6x the number of provinces if you want this to be an avalible option for everyone and not just the more organized 22-25 man kingdoms.

My biggest issue with rituals is that they last for too long. If you cast it just as war begins, you will have it for the whole war in many cases. I'd say it should be 2 days maximum instead of 5. We started our war with barrier and I was considering which ritual to start next but there was no point considering barrier went on and on and on... Having to recast and choose different rituals at different parts of the war would create more strategic play.

You can still start a new ritual and complete it to replace the old ritual. Much like starting a new dragon and completing it will replace the old dragon (if it is still alive)

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Originally Posted by Madchess

As a leader of a 3 man kingdom rituals are off the table with 100 casts, even if somehow we could make it the cost would not be worth it.

Maybe considder the cast to be 4-6x the number of provinces if you want this to be an avalible option for everyone and not just the more organized 22-25 man kingdoms.

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As I said KDs should be encouraged to grow in numbers not to stay small.

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Originally Posted by Cyberphobia

My biggest issue with rituals is that they last for too long. If you cast it just as war begins, you will have it for the whole war in many cases. I'd say it should be 2 days maximum instead of 5. We started our war with barrier and I was considering which ritual to start next but there was no point considering barrier went on and on and on... Having to recast and choose different rituals at different parts of the war would create more strategic play.

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The original idea was the KRs to be weakened by enemy's spells. However it wasn't ready for this age. Probably for the next one there will be the option to stop/weaken enemy's KR.