Force-Ceasefire: Include loss/gain of War Win points

Since War score was incorporated into the game, the War Win score has been "Safe" - in the sense that, unlike like all other resources in the game, an enemy can not come an take this score away from you.
To accumulate points, all a KD/Monarch has to do is to avoid the tough fights and pick the easy ones. Since nobody can force a war on anyone - a monarch who doesn't like what he/she see can simply refuse to accept a challenge to war or declare a forced CF.


So to build on last age's introduction of honor loss for Force-Ceasefire (in war range), I suggest the following:

If a Kingdom waves a LARGER Kingdom and the Larger Kingdom decides to Force a CF rather than fighting back, the smaller KD is rewarded with a % of the Larger KD's war win score.

Along the lines of:
- Kingdom A waves the larger Kingdom B - which is 105% the NW of Kingdom A. Kingdom B Force-CF's Kingdom A, but will do this at a loss of 5% of their War win score. Kingdom A will gain those 5% war win points.
- Kingdom A waves the larger Kingdom B - which is 110% the NW of Kingdom A. Kingdom B Force-CF's Kingdom A, but will do this at a loss of 10% of their War win score. Kingdom A will gain those 10% war win points.
- Kingdom A waves the larger Kingdom B - which is 120% the NW of Kingdom A. Kingdom B Force-CF's Kingdom A, but will do this at a loss of 20% of their War win score. Kingdom A will gain those 20% war win points.


The important part here is that this transferring of War win points only occurs if a Kingdom waves into and is Force-CF'd by a LARGER Kingdom.
Let Kingdoms that are willing to take a risk of fighting a bigger opponent be rewarded, and those that are unwilling to defend their resources lose some of it.

This would also encourage more activity as waving is rewarded - as an addition to the current state where messaging/waiting/agreeing seems to be the prevalent form for wars to occur.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that waving is a pretty dull way to get wars. In doing so, you immediately establish an advantage, in that:

1. you show an element of cohesiveness and organization
2. any reasonable monarch figures out you've already gathered intel and picked up targets
3. you enjoy the element of surprise

As a steward, I've lost count of the kingdoms that waved us and ate a forced ceasefire. Are we cowards for doing so? Maybe, but I do not enjoy starting wars on the back foot, having to spend stealth gathering intel and choosing the best targets for ops and chains and organizing my own KD while the people on the other side have got things already figured out and are midway through sending a dragon (!).

You want war with a kingdom? Then maybe you should be a little smarter going about it instead of showing your hand all at once. It's not fair that you get an inflated war score just because you bluff your way to it against KDs who can't be bothered.

That being said: almost all of the KDs I forced into a ceasefire were larger. The only ones that weren't were ones that we had traded attacks back and forth, without ever getting to hostile, and who mysteriously decided to wave us right after (and I mean, like, the very next hour) a much larger KD, with little chance of actually getting a war, did so. Under your proposal, these guys –who obviously conspired with another KD– would get some war points just because they had friends elsewhere.

We don't need anymore mechanics that promote bottom feeding wins; adding the ability to take peoples war points would do just that, however.

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

We don't need anymore mechanics that promote bottom feeding wins; adding the ability to take peoples war points would do just that, however.

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Please, tell us how this promotes bottomfeeding if a larger kingdom loses war points when a smaller kingdom waves them?

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Originally Posted by Korp

Please, tell us how this promotes bottomfeeding if a larger kingdom loses war points when a smaller kingdom waves them?

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"Your scenario" != "all scenarios"

We got wars by taking advantage of button given by waves. But that's kind of our thing, and we also did not generally have luck when waving ourselves.

That said, I like the idea of this but agree with concerns about abuse.

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Originally Posted by khronosschoty

"Your scenario" != "all scenarios"

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Is the only valid scenario it would apply in as you would known if you bothered to read the post. So, please, tell us how this promotes bottomfeeding when it wouldnt be applied in a bottomfeeding scenario.

War score is a terrible mechanic. In range CF needs to die.

While I might just agree with you Avenger, I think most of the game has warm fuzzy feelings towards both war score and forced CF (AKA Panic Button) by this time.



My main reason for making this suggestion is that whatever happens, your War Score is "Safe".. Unlike any other resource in this game it cannot be taken (or destroyed) by someone else.
Don't like getting hit ? Don't like what you see from SoT's from the other KD ? Just refuse to war them. Simple as that. Now KD's even got their own Panic button to make sure they don't lose much in the process either.
Then you can happily go looking for someone slightly smaller or slightly less scary looking.

By making War Score something that can actually be lost, then those unable or unwilling to defend themselves (or in North/Souths case, those that just can't be bothered) - those KD's would actually lose something against a smaller KD willing to take a risk.
This suggestion also provides incentives to hit a bigger KD, rather than waving someone smaller.

Except it's not "simple as that". If you refuse to engage another KD, they feed happily off of you, knowing there is going to be little to no retaliation.

And there is actually no risk involved in waving. It's lazy and unoriginal, so why should it be rewarded with war points?

Getting the feeling Im being trolled here N/S.. ?

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Originally Posted by North Southland

Except it's not "simple as that". If you refuse to engage another KD, they feed happily off of you, knowing there is going to be little to no retaliation.

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Of course - if you are not willing to fight for what is yours, why shouldn't someone take it ?

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Originally Posted by North Southland

And there is actually no risk involved in waving. It's lazy and unoriginal, so why should it be rewarded with war points?

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This suggestion would reward people waving someone bigger than themselves - which would be a risk. Taking risks should be rewarded.
This suggestion also gives incentives for avoiding bottom feeding, by strictly giving this gain to a Kingdom attacking a bigger Kingdom.


If making your Kingdom take proactive action in a coordinated manner is lazy and unoriginal, feel free to enlighted us how an Energetic and Original Kingdom does things :)

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Originally Posted by Quacky-T

Of course - if you are not willing to fight for what is yours, why shouldn't someone take it ?

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Because “fighting for what is yours” entails forgoing all in-game protection for what’s indeed yours (gb protection, NW protection) and entering a fight in unequal footing (like I said earlier, you need to devote resources to a war plan while the people who waved you have all that already figured out and most likely bided their time to strike at the best possible moment).

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This suggestion would reward people waving someone bigger than themselves - which would be a risk. Taking risks should be rewarded.
This suggestion also gives incentives for avoiding bottom feeding, by strictly giving this gain to a Kingdom attacking a bigger Kingdom.

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It doesn’t neither.
Waving a KD, say, 5% larger is barely a risk – the NW difference is more than offset by the element of surprise. Sometimes 5% NW means nothing, if you’re waving a KD with particular races (like Dwarf or an all-elite halfling).
And there is no incentive AT ALL to avoid bottom-feeding. You can still do that to your heart’s content – and if you’re close in size and your NW dips suddenly (say, a province leaves) then you’ve got a KD locked in.

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If making your Kingdom take proactive action in a coordinated manner is lazy and unoriginal, feel free to enlighted us how an Energetic and Original Kingdom does things :)

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With diplomacy.

Rather than becoming a Wolf, it is easier for the Sheep if everyone else becomes Sheep as well..