Et

Hi there.
I'm opening this tread since I'd like to know if the Expose Thief spell effect receive bunus from:
Dark Elf +25% Combat Instant Spell Damage
Heretic +15% Spell and Operation Damage
Mystic +25% Combat Instant Spell Damage
I'm having doubts since in the spell descrition there is:
"Reduces target province's stealth to between 93% to 66% of original stealth."
And this don't really sound as damage to me (English it's my second language).
Since this is a Strategy Talk thread (and I'm not sure what I'm asking is startegy related either) I'll add:
If the bonus add, don't you think it's worthy to have a DE Heretic or Mystic in a kingdom since he can disable a couple of Thief by himself?
Please let me know what you think, thanks.

1. I haven't specifically tested this, but I would expect ET to be counted as an instant spell (as distinguished from a duration spell).

2.DE and mystic/heretic bonuses should be multiplicative (again, haven't tested).

3. Note that +15 or +25% is going to be multiplicative not added to the damage that would have been done otherwise, (eg if ET would reduce to 93%, then mystic would reduce it to ~91.25% not 68%). You probably already knew that but just mentioning it as it could get confusing on this particular spell.

What you suggest is certainly worth thinking about. There isn't a right answer - it depends what you will do with your set up. And whether it works in practice, depends a lot who gets in first - the "couple of thieves" could equally SW or AW etc.

Thanks for the answer, but I have still some doubt:

1. Yeah I think ET is an instant spell too, but the problem to me is on the "Damage" explanation of the 3 bonuses, not on the fact that is an instant spell.
If in the description there was an "Effect" instead of a "Damage" I would be sure...
But since it's not I have the doubt.

2. You mean that (es) being DE is 125%, being DE mystic is 156%?
If so didn't knok that I thought it was 150, thanks.
It's not a big increase but everythings help.

Yeah of course you are right both on the set up and on who act first, but same can be true the other way around.
To have a province who can, hypothetically, disable a couple of enemy thief seem a good investment for a kingdom (since it's probably efective even as A/M).
Maybe it's why the pers most picked by DE are Heretic an Mystic; if so took me a while to understand it but better late than never.

re 1: I see your point in the sense that ET might not be seen as damage, but I don't think that is right. It isn't lasting damage, because stealth returns, but that piece of stealth you ET'd is still destroyed. Much like peasants are reborn, but the specific ones you FBd are still dead. NM mostly makes troops go back into training, so again not lasting damage. So I think all instant spells cause damage.

Re 2, yes that is what I meant. I do emphasis that I haven't tested this and am happy for someone to correct me if devs have commented on it somewhere, but usually bonuses are multiplied so logically this one should be too.

Re 3 - yes, it is true it can be the same the other way round also. I wasn't disagreeing with your idea, just providing balance.

With the amount of stealth rogues are recovering ET is not reliable way to disable them. FB and tornadoes are much better(yet you need a lot runes).

Just to clarify to chris121 - the amount of peasants you recover depends a lot on how many peasants you currently have. Where with stealth you recover 4/5 no matter how much stealth you have - the recovery is constant and you can't stop it. So even if you get a rogue down to 0 stealth in 2-3 ticks he will be able to do an op.

Keeping rogues at low stealth with ET requires huge activity - not something every KD or even specific t/ms can afford.

Thanks Bo To. Yes, I agree about the peasants regeneration of course, I was just trying to show an analogy as to why I still think ET counts as damage (in the sense of +25% damage on instant spells).

What you said about FB and tornadoes to disable a rogue is interesting. I haven't really considered that against a rogue before. In what way would it disable them? (I mean, obviously they will have no income and the TDs get destroyed but they can still op right?) Are you thinking over time they can't replace their thief losses?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris121

Thanks Bo To. Yes, I agree about the peasants regeneration of course, I was just trying to show an analogy as to why I still think ET counts as damage (in the sense of +25% damage on instant spells).

What you said about FB and tornadoes to disable a rogue is interesting. I haven't really considered that against a rogue before. In what way would it disable them? (I mean, obviously they will have no income and the TDs get destroyed but they can still op right?) Are you thinking over time they can't replace their thief losses?

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The fb is to destroy their BE(which affects the tds). The whole idea is to disable their prop and aw potential(which is not a small thing to do). They still can ns and ga(no matter what you do they still will have huge tpa).

Just to note - tornadoes are really hard and expensive to land on a good rogue(someone that has 4-5+ rwpa at this point of the age). FB are easier but still expensive.

ET is absolutely a way to disable rogues, not sure what Bo To is talking about. It's an extremely easy spell to cast, so if you have the runes you can have your small/chained attackers spam ET every tick. An organized kd can easily get 1-2 ET per tick on a rogue, effectively neutralizing them.
Of course, the more rogues they have the harder this becomes, you'll be left with a decision to fully neutralize 1-2 rogues, or just soften the full roster of them. ET was much more reliable when munk tracked activity on provinces, as you could spam ET at the right times when you learn enemy sleep patterns (the game is better for having that removed though).

But yes, Bo To is right that destroying TD's and BE is a great way to kill the attrition rate of thieves, especially in the post halfling (cheap thieves) era.

Thanks for your replies both of you

I tested this and using a DE Heretic versus a dwar tact on our kds monarch, you get all the mulitpliers(I'm speaking for DE and HEretic, I would assume the same for Mystic, but I did not test mystic.

It's all multiplicative.

And yes, ET is extremely powerful. As Swagger said, it's super easy to cast and does a lot of damage. You can get hybrids (or even attackers) to cast it, so it doesn't 'cost' anything from your Mystics or T/Ms. Sure, you can't TOTALLY disable a rogue through ET in the same way you can by chaining them - they will still get some ops off - but ET can easily remove 80% of a rogue's abilities/stealth/ops during war, and you can't chain everyone.