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Can we figure the new hybrid gains out?
Post your hit info including:
Attacker land & NW
Target land & NW
Attacker kingdom land & NW
Target kingdom land & NW
Target GBP level & GS effect
Racial & personality gains modifiers
Aggressive or Fort stances
Hostile or War relations
Emerald Dragons
Ideally a volunteer will also compile the data and try to help fit it or share the data with those interested in trying.
dont forget KRs, barrier has a GS-like effect, non?
I'll do my best to remember to record these in future. Had a good one last night, ~100% NW but over 130% acres and crushed him for like 18% (of my land) gains... anyways purely anecdotal at this point :)
Attacker
Prov NW - 83913
Prov Land - 530
KD NW - 1521047
KD Land - 9940
No racial bonus/penalty for gains
Target
Prov NW - 87498
Prov Land - 509
KD NW - 1661972
KD Land - 10289
GBP - None
GS - 0
No racial bonus/penalty for gains
Stances: Normal - Normal
Relations: Normal - Normal
Dragons: None
KR: None
+/-: 0h
GAINS: 61 acres
I'll post mine from OOP, have not been taken data after since I've been bussy retaliating people who keep retaling my +50 acre retals with 25-30 acre retals of their own so since I'm grabbing every exchange I don't worry to much about the intel or formula.
Opponent acres 467
Opponent nw 62825 gc
Opponent Kingdom 1162k
Bonuses 5% from personality, -3,2% from Guard stations 1,05x0,968 = 101,64% of normal
Own Acres 405 = 85% acres
Own NW 60596 gc = 96% nw
Own kingdom 189k = 20% nw estimated
result 56 acres = 12%
Opponents acres 405
Opponents nw 23990 gc
Opponent Kingdom 1099k
Bonuses 5% from personality no detractors
Own acres 405 = 100% land
Own nw 60653 gc = 252,8% nw
Own kingdom 189k = 20% nw estimated
Result 25 acres = 6,2% also messed up return time to +11 hours of the first hit which gave an attack time of over 24 hours, maybe this is the thing that was adjusted in the formula I'm not totally sure.
Ideally I'd like to try out a few attacks on growth kingdoms as that would allow me to likely hit up 150-200% land on 100% nw, but at the moment retals take priority, and I do not believe that I'll be able to figure out effects from 10 good hits in the middle of the curve, I use pen and paper when I go advanced.
Attacker
Prov NW - 84196
Prov Land - 497
KD NW - 1617216
KD Land - 10419
No racial bonus/penalty for gains
Target
Prov NW - 74166
Prov Land - 532
KD NW - 1739037
KD Land - 10709
GBP - A little
GS - 0
No racial bonus/penalty for gains
Stances (US-Them): Normal - Normal
Relations (US-Them): Normal - Unfriendly
Dragons: None
KR: None
+/-: 0h
GAINS: 50 acres
Attacker
Prov NW - 84429
Prov Land - 497
KD NW - 1617216
KD Land - 10419
No racial bonus/penalty for gains
Target
Prov NW - 88919
Prov Land - 515
KD NW - 1764089
KD Land - 10475
GBP - A little
GS - 0
No racial bonus/penalty for gains
Stances (US-Them): Normal - Normal
Relations (US-Them): Normal - Unfriendly
Dragons: None
KR: None
+/-: 0h
GAINS: 58 acres
Nice, recruit others to help ;)
Got some more data that sems to indicate the nw factor is still the one to look out for.
Opponent nw/acre relative 111%/115%
Gains +5% no detractors
Land of opponent 882 acres
own land 776 acres
Kingdom much bigger
result 111 of 882 = 12,59%
Opponent nw/acre relative 106/129%
Gains +5% no detractors
Land of opponent 1060 acres
Kingdom much bigger
own land 820 acres
result 133 of 1060 = 12,55%
129% land hardly affected gains negatively, and did not affect attack time at all. Even if gains are ment to drop at a higher acre diffrence they would still run into the hard cap of 20% of once own land before dropping noticeable. The hard cap for me on the second hit was 160 only 27 more than the actual gains while relative gains differed only by 0,04% of the targets land and might be explained with GB protection to minor to appear in SoT.
I wonder if it's possible to do a linear regression to find out the formula? Lol. Anyone good with econometrics?
To find the "province land factor", we need as many cases as possible where relative province NW, relative kingdom NW, and relative kingdom land are similar as possible but relative province land = target land/attacker land is A) large and B) small to different degrees.
To find the "province NW factor", we need as many cases as possible where relative province land, relative kingdom NW, and relative kingdom land are similar as possible but relative province NW = [target NW]/[attacker NW] is A) large and B) small to different degrees.
Going on the old gains formula on the wiki, relative kingdom NW (or land) might be ok if it's large (hitting into a kingdom with NW/land similar to yours may give you the same gains as hitting into a kingdom with NW/land larger than yours).
This could mean that hitting up in land (relative province land = target land/attacker land > 1) gives no minus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madchess
Any more data?
Opponent nw/acre relative 103/127
Gains +5% no detractors
Land of opponent 1474 acres
Kingdom arround 30-40% bigger estimated
result 185 of 1474 = 12,55%
I think my own land was like 1160 or something but did not record it at that time, posting old data of course.
I had my own chart going of my kd but gave up when in war hits seem to not follow much logic.
Prov in my kd was 512 land, vs 150% land 184% NW - NO GBP, gains 103 acres. This just told me to always hit up and to not really look at the land or NW matching.
well that works too, I'm operating purely OOW thougth. Stuff like size diffrence and gb protection means little in a war so it is a totally diffrent senario.
Hitting up to much seems to affect conversion rate, on my last hit going against 139% land with partly barrier and (partly) fortified resulted in only 5% specs converted while most of those hits I've posted intel on was close to or hitting the 20% conversion cap for war hero, gains on that last hit was arround 7-8% of the targets land, but still decent giving my size at that time, it also gave less credits than expected.
Conversions could be affected by fortified thougth, I do not think I know all about that mechanic, max gaining for 10-12% of the targets land seems to work best.
OOW I would always push for as close to 100% and 100% as possible. But really the NW factor can fluctuate by 20-40% and be ok gains still. The sweet spot seems roughly L 125% NW 100% NW (or +10-15%). Hitting up is just better.
Conversion is affected by gains mods(fort/gs/gbp/land\nw difference) and the def you are breaking. Therefore it's better to hit x1 a t/m or a tanky attacker/hybrid with army home(decent gain high conversion) than x4 army out attackers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madchess
So dwarves, if you want to be polite. That's the extent of my mathematic contribution. Please continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo To
Did anyone figure out the new agains formula yet? I know i would like to see it......
There's data here to confirm that with base gains, the formula is about the same as before (like 12.5% of opponent land taken or something), but still not enough data to differentiate enough between the relative land factor and relative NW factor. We need data on hits where you hit someone with similar relative prov NW and relative kingdom NW and land but A) smaller land than you and B) bigger land than you. And then data on hits where you hit someone with similar relative prov land and relative kingdom NW and land but A) smaller NW than you and B) larger NW than you. And when I say "smaller" and "bigger", hopefully more than 130% or the reciprocal of that, since 120% still seems to place you in the sweet spot of base gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryshad
We figured out the gains in the first week. :/
Is this still a thing?
Please share.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panthira
How good is top-feeding?
Say a 1K prov 200K NW hitting a 1.5K prov on 350K NW?
As far as I know that would be messed up because of the nw diffrence, granted the last few hits of such I made was with diffrent detractors, so things was a bit muddy at best and I only hit up a lot in acres not networth.
If nw had been both on 200k I'd estimate net gains at up to 160-180 acres based on what I have seen on my own hits, while I would expect the nw diffrence to add hours on attack, maybe as much as 4-6 hours and I would expect gains to drop to 120-130 acres, maybe as much as down to 90 acres, specs gained will also likely be less than normal.
I play with pen and paper however and don't claim I've winged the gains formula, just that I have a general idea what works and what does not work out of the things I've tried, I would avoid a 20% nw gap or bigger unless it is a retal, but I'd not shy away from hitting up land, that factor alone seems to have little to no impact on gains.
I'm skeptical of this, especially considering the gains formula was changed around the time I posted this thread. Feel free to prove me wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panthira