KD Net/Land Based gains instead of prov net/land based gains

Forces from XX (Y:Y) came through and ravaged our lands! X3 for a decent amount of land that I have been pumping for.

Our Kd is is the bottom 10% of the server and they are in the top 10% of the server.

Once again why is this even allowed?

They are too afraid of raising relations with a KD that could cause problems for them.
They probably have CF's with everyone in thier range and have no targets to hit in thier own range.
They are free hits because I am not gonna hit back. (No I am not gonna hit back.)

I know all of the excuses. BUT WHY IS IT EVEN ALLOWED?
Why is it not penalized?

I just watched the EP. 4 Affairs of State and the topic of how to retain new players past a few days.
Sure they mentioned that new provinces will get hit from all around for the most part of the server as the greater part outside of the top/bottom 15% of the server.
But that number would greatly reduce if hitting outside your KD range were penalized.

Yes I have ranted about this before but this is coming after our 3rd beatdown war. I was triyng to get to our suggested acreage.
Yes I will admit that I was fat and a good target. But I was thinking that since we are a ghetto I might slide and get away with being fat, as everyone in our range might not catch me in time.
And if they did, you know what? I would have hit back an hope for some relations... WITH SOMEONE WE MIGHT WAR.

So once AGAIN I am proposing that we base our gains off of KD Net/acres instead of prov Net/acres.
Why would that be so bad?

1. By removing prov net/acre comparisons for gains would provide MORE targets by opening up ALL provs in your KD range.
2. That would also allow more provinces to participate in KD chains without prov comparisions for gains.
3. We could introduce KD GBP collectively which would help protect being waved by multiple KD's without having to jump into a war for protection.

Again I am proposing either/or (Target Net/acres)/(Your Net/Acres) and/or (Target KD Net/acres)/(Your KD/Net/acres) be the basis of gains.

Yes, the bigger your target in relation to yourself (whether KD or prov) the bigger the gains.

1. It would also provide protection for new players as everyone would be hitting UP.
2. *It would encourage top feeding, making crowns even more impressive.* Those crown merch awards (that were mentioned in AotS) would be hard won.
3. It "might" make new players feel like they accomplished something cool if they hit someone bigger than them.
4. It would encourage more Out of War chains.
5. It would introduce the "growth" KD's to the rest of the server.
6. FOR ONCE, it would give the "Top KD's" a taste of what they have been doing to the ghettos since forever.
7. It would devalue CF's except for the ghettos, who need them more as they/we tend to actually NEED them more.

So you want to be protected by using kd net to explore huge in a small kingdom so the provinces the same size in larger kingdoms cant hit you.How is that fair either to the people your size that didnt sit in a bottom kd net wise ?

All this would actually encourage is explorers sitting at the bottom and learning nothing of the game because they are protected from equal sized provinces. This is why its not a solo province game but a team game. If you have no team to grow with you and protect you then your on your own and thats when the wolves get you. No reason to penalize them for hitting someone their same size .As you said about them tho,dont be afraid to play in larger kds and fight people your size also.Most kds are recruiting.

But what I am asking is that why is the top protected and not the bottom? You should have to fight to be the top and you should be protected if you are a weaker KD. There is no sense in that.

I am not trying "to be protected by using kd net to explore huge in a small kingdom so the provinces the same size in larger kingdoms cant hit you."...
I am just trying to rebaund after getting chained inmy last war, along with half of my other KDmates. We are continually getting trounced. I am not even trying to be a cow, I am just trying to "get back" some acres so that I can be effective in our next war.
And even if I were trying to become a cow in a ghetto, so what? what would the difference in that be than cows in the top 15%?

And also "All this would actually encourage is explorers sitting at the bottom and learning nothing of the game because they are protected from equal sized provinces. "
That is a redundance in itself... You cannot grow yourself without also growing your KD...

As for "No reason to penalize them for hitting someone their same size"...
While yes I as a province am the same size, what is the positive that comes from a top 10% KD hitting a bottom 10% KD??? Other than The top 10% KD not raising relations for thier KD in THIER range? what is the positive that comes from me hitting them back? (other than PERSONAL satisfaction) from hitting back? This does not help either of our KD's and only hurts the smaller KD.

And if you are encouraging this practice as the gains formulas stand, why would you not also encourge top feeding with my "true ratio" gain format... At least that way everyone would have to fight to crown instead of ghettos having to fight to just rebound.

The top isn't protected , you can attack up for even better gains.you refusing to hit back is why they keep doing it.when it isn't free land anymore they will find someone else who doesn't hit back . You can't blame them because your basically saying I don t care if you hit me .

What I am saying is "WHY IS THIS EVEN A THING?

You said yourself " This is why its not a solo province game but a team game."
How does hitting ANYBODY outside of your KD's war range benefit THE KD? Why does someone have to bottomfeed in a top 10% KD? Can you not pump your smaller provinces? Do you have to Bash down someone that has already been beat down? Are you telling me there is NO ONE to hit in your own KD's range? Are you so afraid of warring a similar range KD that you will not hit thier small provinces to grow? Are there no targets in your range that you HAVE to hit a ghetto? If you have CF's as to aviod conflict, why are you even allowed to hit out at all?

And no Hitting up does not have an advantage... And I quote from the wiki....
Relative Province Networth (rpnw) = Targets Networth / Self Networth

Province Networth Factor = DEPEND ( rpnw ) :
rpnw < 0.567 = 0
0.567 < rpnw < 0.9 = 3 * rpnw - 1.7
0.9 < rpnw < 1.1 = 1
1.1 < rpnw < 1.6 = -2 * rpnw + 3.2
rpnw > 1.6 = 0

Relative Kingdom Networth (rknw) = Target Kingdom Networth / Self Kingdom Networth

Kingdom Networth Factor = DEPEND ( rknw ) :
rknw < 0.4 = 0.6666
0.4 < rknw < 0.9 = rknw * 2/3 + 0.4
rknw > 0.9 = 1

If you know how to read...
You ONLY get max gains from hitting anyone from (90% KD net and up)
You DO NOT have an ADVANTAGE of hitting up... You just dont have a disadvantage from hitting up...

And on this topic... I have to suggest YET AGAIN... GET RID OF TIERING for gains and just go off of strait ratios.
Either:
1: Target (Acres/Net)/You (Acres/Net) *preferably KD not prov... but prov would work also - Both would be best* = True advantage from hitting up and penalty for hitting down
2: Smaller (Acres/Net)/Higher (Acres/Net) = Capped at max gains and only penalty from hitting outside (up or down) of your range... Again preferable on KD instead of prov...

The main thing is as you said it is a TEAM GAME... what is the point of hitting outside of your KD range?
Unless you want to crown... In which case would it not be more advantageous to take land from the leaders instead of beating down ghettos? And if you do not with to engage at this time... AGAIN why are you even hitting out at all instead of getting pumped by your KD?!?

ya but unless you want to war your target, max gains come with retals, which ends up being less beneficial than beating on someone smaller, for less.

you do get an advantage hitting up, its not that your gains will be greater than base max gains, but relative to the 'larger' enemy you will have better gains. The trick is knowing where and when it is worthwhile to actually make that fight.

you have to have the mentality of a freshly spit out piece of gum on the sidewalk. when someone steps on you, get stuck in the treads of their shoe and bother them for the foreseeable future.

Yes, in comparision to an actual disadvantage, base max gains "can be seen" as an advantage, but what I am saying is that "by comparison" does not an actual advantage make.

It is a personal irk when I hear that there "are advantages" to hitting up. NO. There are not.
This has been said by owners and moderators alike. With no disadvantage to hitting up as compared to hitting someone you actually intend to war. The only advantage would be to hit within your KD's range for YOUR war.

As for hitting down's disadvantage, as it is tiered, and not on an actual ratio of acres/net, the penatly for hitting down gets capped.
Add that to the "by comparision" non-advantage of hitting up, is why it is a common practice.

It will not help the top team as much as a hit AGAINST thier rivals would.
And it is more advantageous for the smaller KD to focus on thier rivals as NO there isnt an ACTUAL advantage to hitting up.

But because of this flawed logic and gains formulas, is why it has become standard practice to "Random a smaller KD" while you guys "set-up" for your wars.

I do not understand how ANY KD can even hit out at ALL if they are just sitting on CF's with the everyone in thier range.

I have also before proposed that KD returns (Not just attacks) would be penalized for each CF that is active.
This would discourage such practices while they are protected from the top half of the server that they can actually war while the ghetto gets randomed by the whole top half of the server while they do not attack eachother.

All in all, it IS the top that are not only afforded the protections, but also the only ones that are aware of how to exploit the system to thier advantage.

This is why I think that outside of straight up banning ANY hit outside of your KD war range,
non-tiered, true ratio formulas, based on KD net/acres instead or prov net, would encourage a more dynamic KD based system
instead of a team game based on individual stats.

I'm not going to say I think the relative land/nw gains formulas are perfect by any means, but I don't think they are that broken either.

I don't think anyone said their are specific advantages to hitting UP. What has been said is that hit-for-hit when there is a disparity between province and KD size, the smaller will have an advantage in gains/hit. Therein lies your advantage. Also if the gains penalty going down was not capped, do you think that would not be abused just as vigorously? If the gains were one way it could incentivize people to form ghetto satellites to do their dirty work, or strange big-little alliances... Even if you use true ratios, or 'banned' hitting outside your KDs war range, many KDs would just not grow so far ahead of you.

For example someone in a much larger KD than my own just hit my +1400 acre province with 0 GS for 109 acres, a hit which should have been 160-170 acres, and one, if I wasn't a TM, that I could retal for something like 150 acres.

If you take one random hit, you should probably let it slide, but if you take a wave and they tell you they are preparing for War, the above can be used to totally ruin that KDs plans, you just have to have the courage to do it. Just like you don't want someone to cause problems for you, they want to be left more or less alone too! If they've hit you, now you've got a problem, you might as well share it.

To my knowledge KDs aren't generally sitting on CF with every KD in their range, they form beneficial CFs when the opportunities arise (such as when you get targetted by a larger KD, negotiate a long-term CF in return for not retaliating, for example). The majority of 'larger' KDs aren't necessarily strong KDs, they've won a war or two and got big and now are either food, or are trying to learn not to be food.

CFs aren't just something you throw at a KD that attacks you. You have to look at your surroundings and see how you can force/forge strategic CFs that will serve you for the majority of the Age.

Someone has to be at the bottom of the food chain, no matter how you try to set it up, **** will still roll downhill.

He wants protected to grow in small kd, this is the same argument thats been going on since the game began.To use his same argument hes using if his kd grew with him he couldnt use the smaller kd net as a reason he shouldnt be hit. If he never retals it will continue We can tell him how to end his problem,cant help him understand it tho.

You are all arguing that things should stay as they are and let **** roll down hill to the weakest KD's.

With true ratio hits being you hit up for an advantage and down for penalties...
Sure you could stay small to set up your first war, and you could take hits without retal to be smaller for an easier next war.
But those are already tactics that are used in the current set-up.

But in the end, If you win wars you will grow. And take hits because of it. Those good KD's should have that problem and not the ghettos that are repeatedly getting beat down outside of wars and getting demolished in wars.
If you want to land/net crown you will grow and have to fight for it, whether that is in wars or not. Crowning would still be an acomplishment.
If everyone is getting dragged down if they start to grow, even that would introduce new strats about where you would want to hover and possibly try for a push end of age.
That while worthy... I would think ruin the game for growth KD's that never war all age as it is. And now they are just sitting on thier hands all age just waiting for that end of age push.
I dont necissarily think that would be such a bad thing either.

As for CF blankets, Yes, Kds, especially top KD's, do have a CF with everyone in thier range, I have been in several KD's, that were fighting for around top 15% (just below those growth KD's) that you could not hit anyone because of standing CF's and the standing orders in ALL of them were to "Find a smaller KD to random into" For EACH of them when outside of war.
I have seen No more hits on So and So because of relations. I have seen Stop picking fights with bigger KD's.
All instances of those were punished with killing a province off for doing so.

I have NOT ONCE ever seen an order hit UP outside of waving a SPECIFIC KD to get them into war range with us.

And now the new owners are actually looking for how can we get/keep new players?

New players are not going to be randomly placed in top KD's.
Not with a wall/Not with recruiting experienced/active players.
And if they do happen to land there somehow... They get "Do this or get killed off"
No they are going to randomly be placed into mid to low tiers and end up getting pounded from randoms from EVERYONE above them.

So yes, I would like to see a true ratio formula for gains that ENCOURAGES hitting up.
I do not understand why you insist on giving the brunt of the stick to the weakest and continually give tools for the top to use.

Yes alot have been levied against the top...
But to be fair... 1/2 - 2/3 of those ones legitamately helped the game as a whole and/or fixed "exploits" that the top were taking advantage of in ways that were not intended.

Net manipulation, fake wars, account trading, all make sense to get rid of.

End of war cf, in game chat, median explore cost factor, hostile meter (still have to pay to see), ingame intel/targetfinder (still broken), peasant/soldier net, all helped the game as a whole.

Personal VS KD explore pools, scientists VS books, fortified, personalities (merch/shep) are argueable and kinda moot.

You have to remember that half of those thing were from exploits that were being used in unintended ways.
True, if you can "see past" the intended uses, and face values, it can be considered a strat, but half of those were from actual cases of exploitation and not strategy...

I'm not following the reasoning behind your numbers or arguments, if you are say 2k acres in a bottom 10% kingdom chances are that a 2k acre province in a top 10% kingdom will get -30% gains from rkdnw diffrence. If we leave out all modifiers such as gs, stances race and personality, gb protection and added hours the ideal gain would be 20% of your own land which is non aplicaple in this example, or 12% of the targets land.

That means the most anyone could take without modifiers would be 240 acres of your 2000, but since the rkdnw protection is maxed out the real gains would be 168 acres where you do not get penalized and could grab 240 on the retal.

Similarily if we take an example of a 2500 acre province hitting a 2000 acre province with no rkdnw penalities the maximum gains are still 12% of your opponents land or maxed at 20% of your own. The 2500 acre province could in theory gain 240 acres of the 2000 acre province where the 2000 acre province could gain 300 of the 2500 acre province on the return.

Toss modifiers into the fray such as a good chunk of gs when at risk of getting hit, gb protection if you have been hit and so forth and you'll see how it could be that for the most part my 5 man kingdom has been gaining 2x or even 3x of our opponents gains most of the age. Preparedness and better target selection can get you a long way under the current system, with your logic my kingdom with median acres over 4k should be hitting kingdoms arround rank 100 for nw and land, those have mostly 1000-1500 acres as median acres, how is that better than the current system if a 4500 acre province can hit a 1500 acre province for 180 acres just because their kingdoms are equal in size?

I'm not a fan of bullying, but I think your suggestion could probably make that worse.

AGAIN... I am not taking about becoming a bank in a ghetto...

We do not even have a single province at or over 1k acres...
I am recovering from being chained in our last war and just trying to get enough acres to be effective in out next war.

You guys are trying to apply top KD stats to the ghettos.

But again why is ANYONE hitting outside of thier war range?
From wiki: A kingdom may only declare war if its target has more than 75% of its nw, and less than 133% of its nw or if the maximum hostility level is reached by both kingdoms."

If KDs cannot even war outisde of that range why are they allowed to interact with eachother outside of war?
I think there should be a blanket restriction to only interacting within that range...

A lot of text here, I've only read the first post. The fact they are hitting a KD so much smaller than them suggests they are making a mistake you can and should exploit. Build to be ready to hit back, offense is your only defense in this case. A whoring KD has no time(resource) to be dealing with such a tiny KD. Hit them where it hurts - unwhorable acres (usually TMs in range your best bet) or throw abducts in there if it's a warring KD. Rule of thumb - if they are 3x+ your size they can't do anything to declare war on you, play the meter, use your imagination. That's the game, unless something drastically changes adapt yourself or quit basically :)

Hitting out of war range is to gain resources without the risk of War, seems pretty obvious.