Utopian bullies and scum

So my kingdom, 4:18, has been being waved by 7:16 for 48 hours now. We had attempted to come to terms for a war, but they could not compromise on anything, 25 prov kd in top 25 honor rank and would only allow war terms that gave them the higher ground in every aspect. They then began to wave us and have not stopped. This does not include the plunders and abducts they are also doing, but this sure is a wonderful way to end the age don't you think? Really makes me wonder why I'm playing this game when actions like this can go on so long with nothing to stop it. Currently they are 14.5mil NW and 55k acres. We are 12.5mil NW and 46k acres. They have ignored CF requests, and are ignoring all in-game mail. What are we supposed to do?

** The kingdom of 7:16 **
Total land exchanged: +3,938 (31/10)
+3,840 An unknown province (21/0)
+727 Peanut Butter Jelly Time (4/2)
- HeartBeatPigMeat (1/0)
-30 Fish Taco (2/3)
-267 Gozer (3/4)
-332 Double cheese (0/1)

Oh my goodness, they finally accepted CF. Though they did make sure to refresh MeS on us before accepting it. How is the community supposed to every grow again if we continue to allow actions like these? There needs to be something in the game mechanics that stop a kd from being able to do this if we cant count on people to be decent human beings. Removing stances has opened the door for this crap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shyguy99

Oh my goodness, they finally accepted CF. Though they did make sure to refresh MeS on us before accepting it. How is the community supposed to every grow again if we continue to allow actions like these? There needs to be something in the game mechanics that stop a kd from being able to do this if we cant count on people to be decent human beings. Removing stances has opened the door for this crap.

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Tl;dr

"I can't play"
"game 2hrd"
"please show me how to delete my province"

10/10 would cringe again

Wars don't have terms. Declare and win or declare and lose, those are the only terms.

Live and learn:
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...in-vs-Frosties

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shyguy99

Oh my goodness, they finally accepted CF. Though they did make sure to refresh MeS on us before accepting it. How is the community supposed to every grow again if we continue to allow actions like these? There needs to be something in the game mechanics that stop a kd from being able to do this if we cant count on people to be decent human beings. Removing stances has opened the door for this crap.

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Don't let people get you down. Readjust your kingdom focus to better contain powerful enemies next age. Implement builds that cause telling effect on any size province. Stick together and look at your enemies in totality.

The manner you engage incorrigible enemies is to focus on crippling certain sections of their kingdom. They will develop martyrs or crybabies, but this isn't your focus. Take it to war if necessary and finish the crippled. Utopia is driven by a food chain. Your mission is to make your enemies food. If not for you you can make them food for others.

Almost sounded like you could surrender, then I saw the stats, 31 hits for 48 hours is hardly that bad, likely they decided to hit a bit more since you retaliated and maybe because it is near the end of the age. 31 hits on 23 provinces is not even one a day on each province, I've had to deal with more savagely randoms like the first 5 weeks of the game.

What war terms did you ask for?

You could have retalled with ops. Landlust? Maybe you did.

Why did you give them ops if you were only going to make 10 attacks? Wouldn't it have been better to either not give them ops or make more attacks?

This could be a good situation to offer mentorship.

Now is your chance to strike...they got 2 in vacation so drop cf and wave back. Go to war. Dont stand for the crap wanna be 25s think they can get away with! Plus they are land fat now. You hold the cards.

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Originally Posted by umajon911

Now is your chance to strike...they got 2 in vacation so drop cf and wave back. Go to war. Dont stand for the crap wanna be 25s think they can get away with! Plus they are land fat now. You hold the cards.

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The Terms don't allow for dropping the CF. Newbs returned fire without realising the significance of ops.

7:16 were demanding a start time of the 6th and no pre-ops (Because they are all rogues and did not want us to do expose thieves before relations to ruin their plan, obvi).

It was agreed to disagree as we had another option available, and so they did expose Thieves on our TMs and waved(on the 6th). Hopefully the new players learned from the error of giving ops.

Sadly, one of our better attackers was frustrated that we allowed a war opportunity to pass, and has quit the game.

After 3 days of one sided ops, we would have been in a good spot to war. That opportunity wasn't there. I guess the next question is, should we have gone to war(War loss is better than a player loss). Hindsight being 20/20...

Terms? They were bullies. Its EOA... make a statement. The ****play wont be stood for!

Learn to diplo. You guys declined war, then accepted and changed name to "war agreed" then disappeared for 18hrs, then declined. We had already switched builds waiting for you to confirm a war time. If you don't like terms you can propose an alternative, you don't ignore a KD for 18hrs. Not once did you mention you had an issue with any terms. We would have been fine with immediate ops if you wanted, but figured no ops was better for your KD.

We had 2 in VM for a long time and another one who disappeared, as we told them in negotiations. So it was an even match, which your KD agreed. The wave was for wasting our time, and as you stated you already backed out of a previous wasr agreement when you agreed to war us.
http://i.imgur.com/NOLDkvQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9zHVB7N.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/E4aIY3o.jpg

This was the mail send after wave that was ignored.

http://i.imgur.com/ZIi7EH2.jpg


Also half our KD is damn near inactive, so you probably would have won..

I wonder who that Snapchat was from.

Almost never listen to anyone tell you to learn to diplo: that's incorrect language.

I'm not saying Pestilence logic isn't colloquial or even Utopian, but it's not the way things have to be. For instance I have zero desire to war a reluctant kingdom. Now I don't have an impatient kingdom to deal with but I'd like to see us grow above it. The question is, would such a kingdom be falling over itself to wave Divinity or Freeakstyle? Would it?

No reason to pick on Pestilence since he represents a common posture to a smaller kingdom. They act as if the game isn't filled with targets other than the reluctant one. You pumped: It's not the end of the world. Hit a kingdom you aspire to defeat not one you know you can. Trying to teach lessons in violence isn't good for player base morale.

We're all suppose to be tough but I can tell you that very few times I've offered to retaliate for a t/m they've taken me up on it. Fact is when I've run t/m I retaliate myself if I can break. You know why? Because it is the injection the game needs.

Go up, at least sideways, not down. Instead of going negative, try to guide a kingdom that clearly wasn't in your league.
When you mention diplo, and the kingdom sent you a blank CF; well that's how we do it down here. You should respect that, or aspire to respect the casual core of this game.

Yeah, I'm still going. Because this crap where a casual kingdom exchanges hits only to learn they're outclassed is going to happen like a bar fight. You walk away, particularly if you're mastered. To then call it a lesson is pure bullying, and you don't want to be that. I compell real competitive war kingdoms to face each other. It's late age so go find Valhalla.

Strat, how is one KD of equal size waving another KD bullying? Since they agreed war then ghosted us and backed out we thought a wave might change their mind for a 4th time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StratOcastle

Almost never listen to anyone tell you to learn to diplo: that's incorrect language.

I'm not saying Pestilence logic isn't colloquial or even Utopian, but it's not the way things have to be. For instance I have zero desire to war a reluctant kingdom. Now I don't have an impatient kingdom to deal with but I'd like to see us grow above it. The question is, would such a kingdom be falling over itself to wave Divinity or Freeakstyle? Would it?

No reason to pick on Pestilence since he represents a common posture to a smaller kingdom. They act as if the game isn't filled with targets other than the reluctant one. You pumped: It's not the end of the world. Hit a kingdom you aspire to defeat not one you know you can. Trying to teach lessons in violence isn't good for player base morale.

We're all suppose to be tough but I can tell you that very few times I've offered to retaliate for a t/m they've taken me up on it. Fact is when I've run t/m I retaliate myself if I can break. You know why? Because it is the injection the game needs.

Go up, at least sideways, not down. Instead of going negative, try to guide a kingdom that clearly wasn't in your league.
When you mention diplo, and the kingdom sent you a blank CF; well that's how we do it down here. You should respect that, or aspire to respect the casual core of this game.

Yeah, I'm still going. Because this crap where a casual kingdom exchanges hits only to learn they're outclassed is going to happen like a bar fight. You walk away, particularly if you're mastered. To then call it a lesson is pure bullying, and you don't want to be that. I compell real competitive war kingdoms to face each other. It's late age so go find Valhalla.

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hi Strato this post made me feel encouraged.

War or don't war (and take a wave or two). Don't ignore and then cry in the forums.

I still standby what I said. Drop CF. Wave. War.... Its a war game.

Naimadally- It doesn't sound form the messages like they were demanding a particular start date - are there some we haven't seen?

I understand the issue with new people giving ops away. Hopefully they learn from this one. I find most people only need one real time when they do it and then get opped to pieces to get it.

If the messages are representative, I can understand why they waved you. Your KD's messages were misleading (even if unintentionally) and it's annoying for their monarch to have to keep telling his/her KD different things (the Kd get annoyed that the plans keep changing - that annoyance gets focussed on the leadership, and it is then often turned towards the opposing KD).

@umajon - presumably the CF is set in game to last to EoA.

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Originally Posted by Chris121

@umajon - presumably the CF is set in game to last to EoA.

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Ah forgot bout that, they got preset dates...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by umajon911

I still standby what I said. Drop CF. Wave. War.... Its a war game.

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It's a strategy game

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris121

Naimadally- It doesn't sound form the messages like they were demanding a particular start date - are there some we haven't seen?

I understand the issue with new people giving ops away. Hopefully they learn from this one. I find most people only need one real time when they do it and then get opped to pieces to get it.

If the messages are representative, I can understand why they waved you. Your KD's messages were misleading (even if unintentionally) and it's annoying for their monarch to have to keep telling his/her KD different things (the Kd get annoyed that the plans keep changing - that annoyance gets focussed on the leadership, and it is then often turned towards the opposing KD).

@umajon - presumably the CF is set in game to last to EoA.

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We didn't demand a particular date, just hoped they would give an option other than the 4th(5am for most of KD). We would have reluctantly accepted that date if they said it was their only option.

They didn't just accidealntally give ops, the meter was 60-30 or somewhere around there, so to say we just beat on them for 48 hrs is ridiculous. Especially since they started ops 2hrs before we even waved, and the actual conflict went from May 6-June 24(less than 48hr). The OP is just exageratting every detail to play the victim card.

The OP should feel lucky that preset date CF is implemented. Else they would be waved again for sure, for wasting others' time, and cry foul in forum with misleading information.

KD asks for a war. After discussing terms, KD gets turned down. KD then waves anyway and pushes for a war. I fail to see what's even remotely dishonorable, bullying or reason to call names here.

The concept of an organised war is relatively new in Utopia, and turning down a war does not grant you immunity from being waved. And the opposing kd is under absolutely no obligation to accept a cf during or after the first wave. The fact that you seem to think it does speaks more to your inexperience with the game than the behaviour of the opposing kingdom.

[QUOTE=Chris121;15460566]Naimadally- It doesn't sound form the messages like they were demanding a particular start date - are there some we haven't seen?

I've been in the game long enough to realise this isn't the greatest crime ever committed. We did have a war agreed with 4:1. I'm not sure on all the timelines.

As per the messages posted earlier, I did defer to the monarch to ensure no confusion. No pre war ops against a kd filled with 8 tpa raw rogues is not something our kd understood the implications of, save for a few of us.

The retals by our kd were STUPID. We should have op'd them for a few days. It was obvious Xian and another dorf was temp inactive, and Xian was perm inactive. Their activity was low. My opinion on it was as follows:
After 2-3 days of one sided ops, we would have been in a good spot. Identifying who their inactives were, we would have been in a good spot. However, I did not want to reward someone for forcing us into a war, and I did not want to reward our noobs for acting outside of posted RC.

I have access to multiple messages, including our sub declining war on Game Date March 1 of YR10 Real Date Wed, 17 Jan at 18:27 GMT+00:00, and incoming messages from Oyster requesting specific start time and no ops(twice), and on 2 occasions the sub redirecting Oyster to the Monarch.

Leadership in our kd are engaged in supporting the future of this game, as a result we often play very nice and have developed good relations with many kds in our tier range. We also switch our theme each age, so we have a good idea about who are good people, even if we are an unknown quantity. In the gaming world, we are a very small community. Even if in game we disagree with methodology, let us be as mature as i'm sure our age would indicate in this forum.

I have my 12 year old playing with us, and although he was upset his elf(highest wpa in our kd) being totally destroyed by a kd full of rogues with assassinate wizards. I think it facilitates learning to throttle your emotional responses. Also, without a CF, he would have sent a drake on them yesterday lol(We still have work to do on the emotional thing). The take away for us needs to be not to enable such a kd the opportunity to hurt us with anything other than generals.

Best thing for me in the interaction was picking up on why the off and def looked so poor. I was amazed by how many thieves each province had. Our best thief had 2k less thieves than 10 of their provinces. It was apparent they were concerned that we would expose all their thieves before things got going,and I suspect that motivated their actions.

This is all over now, age end is upon us. We lost one long time player because of how this unfolded, and mostly because we did not war them. I want our kd to improve, and giving ops to a kd full of rogues is not tactical. In the modern game where wave frequency are so greatly reduced, should the inmates be encouraged to run the asylum, or should the education of tactical play be encouraged?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naimadally

I've been in the game long enough to realise this isn't the greatest crime ever committed. We did have a war agreed with 4:1. I'm not sure on all the timelines.

As per the messages posted earlier, I did defer to the monarch to ensure no confusion. No pre war ops against a kd filled with 8 tpa raw rogues is not something our kd understood the implications of, save for a few of us.

The retals by our kd were STUPID. We should have op'd them for a few days. It was obvious Xian and another dorf was temp inactive, and Xian was perm inactive. Their activity was low. My opinion on it was as follows:
After 2-3 days of one sided ops, we would have been in a good spot. Identifying who their inactives were, we would have been in a good spot. However, I did not want to reward someone for forcing us into a war, and I did not want to reward our noobs for acting outside of posted RC.

I have access to multiple messages, including our sub declining war on Game Date March 1 of YR10 Real Date Wed, 17 Jan at 18:27 GMT+00:00, and incoming messages from Oyster requesting specific start time and no ops(twice), and on 2 occasions the sub redirecting Oyster to the Monarch.

Leadership in our kd are engaged in supporting the future of this game, as a result we often play very nice and have developed good relations with many kds in our tier range. We also switch our theme each age, so we have a good idea about who are good people, even if we are an unknown quantity. In the gaming world, we are a very small community. Even if in game we disagree with methodology, let us be as mature as i'm sure our age would indicate in this forum.

I have my 12 year old playing with us, and although he was upset his elf(highest wpa in our kd) being totally destroyed by a kd full of rogues with assassinate wizards. I think it facilitates learning to throttle your emotional responses. Also, without a CF, he would have sent a drake on them yesterday lol(We still have work to do on the emotional thing). The take away for us needs to be not to enable such a kd the opportunity to hurt us with anything other than generals.

Best thing for me in the interaction was picking up on why the off and def looked so poor. I was amazed by how many thieves each province had. Our best thief had 2k less thieves than 10 of their provinces. It was apparent they were concerned that we would expose all their thieves before things got going,and I suspect that motivated their actions.

This is all over now, age end is upon us. We lost one long time player because of how this unfolded, and mostly because we did not war them. I want our kd to improve, and giving ops to a kd full of rogues is not tactical. In the modern game where wave frequency are so greatly reduced, should the inmates be encouraged to run the asylum, or should the education of tactical play be encouraged?

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We told you that we had 2 in VM that would be staying there and you guys agreed it was a fair match. The 3rd guy who just disappeared I didn't even know about, and actually would have given you an advantage.

The no pre war ops was meant as an incentive to you, not to us. Your 2 or 3 mystics would not have been able to ET all our 3-6 wpa rogues before we robbed all your runes, gc, and horses. Proposed terms are exactly that, a proposal which you are free to decline/debate/modify. We were open to multiple start dates but had hoped you would stray from your demand of only the 4th. The reason given for declining had nothing to do with start date anyway.

As for the AW, one of your mystics had 2tpa and no WT, and the other was targeted because it was the prov doing the majority of the ops.


Regardless of all that took place, the reason for the wave was for the complete lack of respect shown by your monarch in proposing a date then disappearing for 18hrs while we converted then basically saying "Lol we changed our minds." We planned to CF after the first wave, but once again your monarch went off. He proposed and withdrew the CF offer over and over again while sending an obviously inappropriate message. Our monarch wanted to hit you guys until EOA for it, but I didn't want to punish a whole KD for their inexperienced monarch's actions.

"Game Date March 1 of YR10
Real Date Wed, 17 Jan at 18:27 GMT+00:00
Sender
Recipient Viscount Big Bull the Rogue of Rocky Mountain Oyster (7:16)
Subject Re:War?

The Monarch is looking to take up another offer and looking to start war in the next 36 hours. THanks for your offer."

I'm being told the sent item above is accurate. The hits started more than 48 hours later on May 6th. CF offer was made on May 7th and remained in place every tick. On May 11th the CF was updated 4 times.

June 10 of YR10 Camelot_WAR agreed (4:1) has begun a Gold Dragon project against us!

This was the agreed war. Drakes 28 hours after you waved us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naimadally

"Game Date March 1 of YR10
Real Date Wed, 17 Jan at 18:27 GMT+00:00
Sender
Recipient Viscount Big Bull the Rogue of Rocky Mountain Oyster (7:16)
Subject Re:War?

The Monarch is looking to take up another offer and looking to start war in the next 36 hours. THanks for your offer."

I'm being told the sent item above is accurate. The hits started more than 48 hours later on May 6th. CF offer was made on May 7th and remained in place every tick. On May 11th the CF was updated 4 times.

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That is accurate yes. But 11hrs later your monarch bailed on that war offer to take ours, then made another war agreement with 4:1 to bail on us, then didn't follow through with that either? I think you can see where the problem lies.




Game DateMarch 15 of YR10
Real DateThu, 18 Jan at 08:54 GMT+00:00
SenderThe Conniving King Loki of Jean-Luc Picard (4:18)
RecipientViscount Big Bull the Rogue of Rocky Mountain Oyster (7:16)
SubjectRe:War?

Lol yeah he confused things. I was a little busy with work and reading back I think they went back and forth 3 times haha. Ultimately the other offer proved to be tipped their way a little to much for our liking :P

We were thinking an April 4th war start date, though I realize now that that is only 12 hours away, so not starting then is not a deal breaker for us

> Viscount Big Bull the Rogue of Rocky Mountain Oyster (7:16) said: > >

Unless I misread his message I think he declined saying you had another offer? I sent him some proposed terms, if you guys want to get together and let me know for sure one way or the other that would be good. We just need time to switch builds and wake everyone up. > >>

The Conniving King Loki of Jean-Luc Picard (4:18) said: >> >>
I think my Steward has been in talks with you guys, I'm pretty sure we'd be up for it

> Viscount Big Bull the Rogue of Rocky Mountain Oyster (7:16) said: >> > >> >
Hey, wondering if you guys would be interested in setting up a War. We have 2 provs in vacation mode so it looks to be a pretty even match. We've been getting beat on since before Christmas so are hoping to get a war before eoa to get people back in to the game.

If I do the math on this, you wave us 37 hours after I tell you we plan to start war in 36 hours....

...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naimadally

If I do the math on this, you wave us 37 hours after I tell you we plan to start war in 36 hours....

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Not sure what kind of math you are doing.

March 1 yr10 - Steward declines war
March 12 yr10 - monarch accepts war
March 12 yr10 - i mentioned steward declined war and ask for clarification
March 15 yr10 - monarch confirms you guys bailed on previous war and want to war us. Proposes start date of may 4 then disappears
March 21/22 yr 10 - I ask for 2 different start date options
April 10 yr 10 - Monarch changes mind because our "TPA is too good" 6hrs after his proposed start date.
May 4 yr10 - 4:18 starts to ET and theif op
May 6 yr10 - We wave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StratOcastle

Almost never listen to anyone tell you to learn to diplo: that's incorrect language.

I'm not saying Pestilence logic isn't colloquial or even Utopian, but it's not the way things have to be. For instance I have zero desire to war a reluctant kingdom. Now I don't have an impatient kingdom to deal with but I'd like to see us grow above it. The question is, would such a kingdom be falling over itself to wave Divinity or Freeakstyle? Would it?

No reason to pick on Pestilence since he represents a common posture to a smaller kingdom. They act as if the game isn't filled with targets other than the reluctant one. You pumped: It's not the end of the world. Hit a kingdom you aspire to defeat not one you know you can. Trying to teach lessons in violence isn't good for player base morale.

We're all suppose to be tough but I can tell you that very few times I've offered to retaliate for a t/m they've taken me up on it. Fact is when I've run t/m I retaliate myself if I can break. You know why? Because it is the injection the game needs.

Go up, at least sideways, not down. Instead of going negative, try to guide a kingdom that clearly wasn't in your league.
When you mention diplo, and the kingdom sent you a blank CF; well that's how we do it down here. You should respect that, or aspire to respect the casual core of this game.

Yeah, I'm still going. Because this crap where a casual kingdom exchanges hits only to learn they're outclassed is going to happen like a bar fight. You walk away, particularly if you're mastered. To then call it a lesson is pure bullying, and you don't want to be that. I compell real competitive war kingdoms to face each other. It's late age so go find Valhalla.

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I've read this a few times and like it the more I read it. We have a lot original KD members that feel like this, and it guides how we interact with folks. However, they may lack your elocution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pestilence

Not sure what kind of math you are doing.

March 1 yr10 - Steward declines war
March 12 yr10 - monarch accepts war
March 12 yr10 - i mentioned steward declined war and ask for clarification
March 15 yr10 - monarch confirms you guys bailed on previous war and want to war us. Proposes start date of may 4 then disappears
March 21/22 yr 10 - I ask for 2 different start date options
April 10 yr 10 - Monarch changes mind because our "TPA is too good" 6hrs after his proposed start date.
May 4 yr10 - 4:18 starts to ET and theif op
May 6 yr10 - We wave

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So we agree the monarch declined war, less than a day alter you wave and don't accept cf for 48 hours and we miss an agreed war with another kd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naimadally

So we agree the monarch declined war, less than a day alter you wave and don't accept cf for 48 hours and we miss an agreed war with another kd.

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Monarch declined war after agreeing to it and making us prepare and convert. He was obviously trying to play a bunch of KDs to get a better war deal and it backfired. There is no obligation to agree to any wars and KDs are free to wave. We had no intention of hitting you on the initial decline as you stated you had a war agreed. It was after the monarch bailed on that war, wasted our time and resources and then bailed on our war that we decided to wave. This isn't car shopping where you can play dealerships against each other. It's a strategy game, and your monarch's strategy was poor.