Defect and sciences

Hey all,

So I've just defected twice and both of the times I lost 1 scientist.
Aside from the honor loss which will put me back a fair amount, the 2 lost scientists are incredibly painful on the long run. There's no real way to recover from losing scientists and their benefit isnt scaled to acre size or whatever.

I'd like to suggest that defecting does not take scientists. I'd rather defecting doesnt touch sciences at all, but if it does, at least make it just target books? There's a way to somewhat recover for those.

2 lost scientists is a huge amount which has long term repercussions.
Regards,

NighT

Tis naught but the cost of defecting dude, try to replace them with a few smart hits...

That's exactly my point, you cant replace them with hits.
If have had to defect twice, will defect a third time soon. Undoubtedly it'll cost me another scientist, basically almost halving my science production compared to other provinces. No way to recover from that.

Regards,

NighT

ya maybe there could be a minimum of the base 5 scientists or something, i still feel there should be a penalty, though.

There is a penalty? It's 15% loss of all stuff, which is fine.

The problem that the science loss isnt actually a per-acre loss like all the rest (wiz/thief/troops/..acres). It really does set you back a lot compared to other provinces.
And why? Because you want to keep playing the game but for some reason want out of your current kingdom? Great way to force people to stay in their kingdom where they dont want to be / which doesnt want that player.

Regards,

NighT

Ya i know there is a penalty, im saying some penalty should stay in place, and even suggested an alternative. So defensive.

The idea is that it 'forces' people struggle and work together rather than just give up and move on. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet.

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Originally Posted by RattleHead

Ya i know there is a penalty, im saying some penalty should stay in place, and even suggested an alternative. So defensive.

The idea is that it forces' people struggle and work together rather than just give up and move on. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet.

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Yeah exactly. It makes you decide if it's really worth it to detect.

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Originally Posted by Pestilence

Yeah exactly. It makes you decide if it's really worth it to detect.

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I actually agree with NighT's other suggestion though. Why wouldn't it just take a portion of the books you already have, instead of actually losing scientist? That is much more in line with the rest of the penalties that we already experience.

It should do both, though. All your stuffs.

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The Lords will take about 15% of everything you own -- coins, land, buildings, peasants, and more

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I don't mind their being a hard minimum, just call the base 5 scientists the new "0" (zero) ... anything above that could be subject to the 15% tax

You can trad for land, plunder for resources but you cant really learn for scientists. You can for books though.

If it affects sciences, it should affect books and not scientists.
I'd like to go as far as to argue it shouldnt affect sciences at all, as those are not a per-acre number.

Regards,

NighT

I feel your statement kinda helps the opposite argument tbh, all the other things are trivial, you can regain them, often with trivial effort. If you didn't lose the resources that are hard to get, or generate, there would be no incentive for new, or any players, to stay in a Kingdom through any type of adversity.

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Originally Posted by RattleHead

I feel your statement kinda helps the opposite argument tbh, all the other things are trivial, you can regain them, often with trivial effort. If you didn't lose the resources that are hard to get, or generate, there would be no incentive for new, or any players, to stay in a Kingdom through any type of adversity.

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Why not just make them reset then?

Edit: My point being, you can catch back up with effort with the other stuff. Scientists puts you in a hole that is compounded the rest of the age. If you want to disincetivise (Im sure I spelled that wrong) it to that extent they should just have to reset any ways.

Not everyone who defects does so early age with a 'small' province. Maybe a person would want to keep some sort of accumulated honor or whatever, rather than reset. But early on, or at any point if your province hasn't been able to take off like you hoped, resetting seems reasonable to me. I assume people choose to defect in this scenario primarily because they don't want to deal with the 24h downtime, or whatever it is.

If you don't want to deal with downtime, and you can't fit into, for whatever reason, the KDs you land in- then you have to pay the toll.

Like I said, I agree going under 5 at the start is a pretty big ding, and it could change such that 5 is the absolute minimum quantity of scientists, perhaps.

@Rattlehead,

Trivial? I'm A/M and it friggin sucks having to regrow and then repop those wiz, but sure, trivial.

How difficult/costly exactly do you want to make defects? You argue defecting is to deter people leaving a kingdom and rather 'make the most out of it' in the kingdom you're in. However, that just doesnt hold up for a lot of people defecting. I've been playing in the kingdom I was in for many years. Unfortunately these lackluster changes meant 3-4 people quit the game and nobody could be arsed to pick up monarchy.
I figured I'd try my luck in some other kingdoms, accepting the defects would put my military, wizard and land numbers behind most players. That's fine, I'll recover those, or wont. However, sciences leave a long lasting effect you cant overcome.

What's the point in making people who are done in their current kingdom (for however long they've been there, a day, week or year) incur a hefty cost they cant overcome? The land / pop loss balances out in case provs are massively overgrown, it's just that sciences have a flat effect that isnt based on acre size. So a loss there puts you at a serious disadvantage, especially if your first defect lands you in a kingdom with 4 players that havent even built their acres.

Regards,

NighT

If you are A/M you should have some Guild bonus, I imagine, which will help you replace the wizards, and besides, you lose land too, so unless you planned on not growing anymore and just pumping wizards, it does indeed seem trivial to me.

I keep agreeing with you about scientists, and suggesting a realistic change, but you seem to want to argue about it, regardless. GL with your suggestion.