I anxiously await the details.
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I anxiously await the details.
okay mine nw averages all the races to 400k nw and allows them to vary land size. i run an effective 2.5 wpa, 2 tpa, 5 peasents/acre, 54 raw def, 15% pop science, 15% ME science(off and def,) 10% homes, baron honor, and 25 nw/acre of science
notes:
1. that i run leet offense and dspec def for all races except feary and human who have offspec offense and leet def.
2. Avain and feary have fantasism cast at all times but i left off bloodlust as 30% losses perminately is just to huge.
3. tpa and wpa are effective meaning that avains need 2 raw tpa but a halfer only has to dedicate 2/1.5= 1.33 raw space giving more space for leets.
4. Honestly the way ethan runs the numbers will be more reprsentative of orc/undead,
--both of those cary alot of nw in leets and while decently strong on a acre-acres evenly caped fight they'll end up bottomfeeding or running high dspecs which bring their offense comareable to elf/feary/human.
......off..............def out.......def in............Race
......199,282......99,880.......226,356........dwarf
......208,046......107,03.......232,788........halfling
......242,321......104,30.......181,415........avain
......246,778......104,22.......197,038........elf
......270,052......110,69.......110,690........feary
......274,157......110,24.......110,243........human
......319,466......88,041.......137,193........orc
......352,272......75,353.......143,697........undead (pure leet)
I’m on my phone for the moment, so can’t get my version up. Given the huge OME, I am assuming BL when available though. I was confused why UD looked so good in your rankings, because I’m showing them as total junk - the defense is why. They are at a super-suicider 4.5:1 or higher off/def ratio.
I again find most elites useless - human for example probably should only run like 1epa max. Human still looks low though - is the +15% in? (I apply sci bonus to tpa/wpa sci too, so that helps a tiny bit as well.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
Halfling pure specs would be stronger I think. Cant run numbers right now.
So I'm running slightly higher science numbers than Persian, in that I'e got +20% pop and ME, and +25% BE. Also 110% WPA sci, and 100% TPA sci - I think those are kinda reasonable? 4 mWPA and 5 mTPA though, because this is a later age simulation. Although last I knew science was loosening up a little bit, but maybe dropping the raw multiplies a little, so this might either be mid age, or impossible, not sure. I think I basically just rounded down my age end science, lacking a better way to guess.
Offense:Defense is held at a 70:30 ratio, aka 2.33 to 1. (No, I'm not turtling to make UD look bad... it does that all on it's own!) I gave Elf GPx2 and (old) BL x1 - those races with BL I gave BLx2... it seems to be increasing ME by about the right amounts. Not 100% sure I've got order of operations perfect, but that should be second order effects and thus not that big a deal.
Everybody shares 30% land between TG and stables - Avian just has 30% TGs. Which is a little unfair to them, but not too much. UD does have lots of build space, but I don't model that, nor plague, so it isn't like UD is always wrong... just usually.
[Now running to dinner... so without any more ado, my typical Power Rankings for Age 80 final]
Rankings___OPA____DPA___NW/A__MPNW_____%Max
UD no Elt__144.7___62____217.6___0.95_____92.57%
Undead____201.8___86.5__284.5___1.013____98.75%
Dwarf no E__158____67.7__220.8___1.022____99.59%
No Race___159_____68.1__221.3___1.026___100.00%
Human_____196.7___84.3__271.7___1.034___100.77%
Halfer no E__176.4___75.6__231____1.09____106.25%
Orc________211.3___90.5__276.5___1.092___106.37%
Orc no Elt___176.1___75.5__230.3___1.093___106.47%
Avian no Elt_162.1___69.5__211.7___1.094___106.58%
Faery no E__163.6___70.1__212.4___1.101___107.25%
Elf no Elt___179.4___76.9__229_____1.119___109.08%
Human no E__185.8__79.6__236.8___1.121___109.23%
If human elites were the same price as dspecs would you still skip elites? I am pretty annoyed at that 10.0 nw on human elites, considering working on lower epa than I normally would.
I am planning human this age - I'd go elf A/m for FB... except I make a terrible mage for some reason, and need to stick to either straight A, or A/t at most. I do love QF too. I think I'm going to go with maybe 1 epa... no more for sure. Human elites are way too NW heavy, don't build more than a tiny number of them.
In fact... at least for attackers, no one should be running elites except UD. (Well, Orc is fine to mix at like 50/50, but in theory they can be 0.1% strong without them.) And you shouldn't be running UD, so ya, in theory this age, the age of the "big shake up", went from 6 point specs with a few 7s to... 6 point specs with a few 7s. Given the hype, this is the single most underwhelming set of age changes ever. Might as well just have run last age again, and it was sold as a big change.
And yes, I went into the suggestions yelling about how stupid the elite NW was again this age. All I can conclude is that elites are permanently dead because the devs/owners hate them. I think it is a safe assumption from here on out that we will only see useful elites by accident.
Did you take into account that specs are worth 1 points nw for every off or def point so that avian spcs are 7 nw and undeads only 5 for each.
Also once you get into a war nw values means next to nothing, as it is the output that counts and elites almost always have the greater output. Thus everyone will be using elites still except maybe halfings.
I think the argument is wars are made off of NW, so if your kd average is 230 instead of 280, you're not warring even at the same land size. So if you're not top 15 with limited options, specs are stronger/NW than elites, so you should focus specs.
Now I've never in 3 years really been in a spot where lowering my KD nw or strength was ideal, but maybe now.
its often better to lower you nw. because kds look at u and wont war if you are 18 million to their 16 million but only up 55k acres to their 54k acres. they qq all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000
the reverse is true if u are say 18 million and 60k acres kds at 18.5 million but 54k acres will often still be willing to war you. all they see is well we're bigger and more pumped. they don realize that at 18 million nw u actually have signficantly more power than they do. if your a kd that runs heavy tpa/wpa u can often hide that "power" in low nw since even after sot's they see a kd with similar raw mod off/def to their own kd.
Phone again, so very short. Yes, I adjust spec nw values based on strength... it is 0.8 nw per point for opecs still right? And if two provs can both get to 1.1 MPNW with the same off:def ratio, whoever has higher NW/A us (almost) strictly better, because it is like having free GS. But lowering mpnw via bloated elites means you start war with *less raw offense* than you could have had, hence the focus on NW ratios. For most, land is really easy to get more of, only the top is it a scarce resource.
Yeah I 100% understand the idea behind it, but most of my wars in the last years are arranged from eowcf, or otherwise happen because there's ~3 KDs even close to land ranks, and max power was the goal not a weaker but stronger NW lol. But now that I'm in a random kd, not 25 provs, I can def see the advantages to flying under the radar on NW.
Now if anyone realizes human is the strongest TM race as well, hmmmm.
it is but i show the races to max the def army in, while ethan went "all spec" i prefer showing what a typical trained prov will be at fixed acres is as important as power per nw alone. for exampleQuote:
Originally Posted by tiggis
while ethan is probubly right in pure nw as i said above as hard as it is to war up 2 million nw its just as rediculous to war up 15k acres. like i dont care if we have imilar rw power if u start up at 65k acres to my 55k acres it puts me at a massive disadvantageous soo ultimatelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Ethan
you actually want to design a kd that has some nw effience, some nw inefficient but high raw power provs. like what i display is meant to show a nw averaged raw attacker power for everyone. for myself i look atQuote:
Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000
acres/nw...off...............def out.......def in.......Race
1,335........253,506......103,02.......197,141........elf
1,241........327,337......87,074.......136,789........orc
299,641....189,902......77,177.......147,679........elf
322,303....263,755......70,161.......110,219........orc
i look at the provs in a nw averaged sense AND based on what land they need, then look at their offense on a raw fixed landbut varied across nw.
so in this case comparing let say elf to orc, we can see that nw averaged an elf can sit on higher land and have 77% of an orcs off.....while on raw acres its at 71%.
This means to me that when you put elfs and orcs in a kd together u can actually let elfs drift upwards in size to less determinent than if u were to let an orc go upwards. A large elf is actually similar in nw to an orc, so if i have large fat elfs and u have large fat orcs, sure u have ALOT more offense but your also going to eat a chain much much harder because in a relative sense u're actually being chained deeper. 1300-500 on an elf is similar if u took a 1200 acre orc to 500.
Similarly an orc is basically guaranteed to be bottom feeding an elf at equal acres which makes gains worse, two equally sized kds give the elf kd a slight advantage if both can equally multi-tap their oppenet. this is really really important when u start nm waving, i can put up big elfs that are nw effienct, and nm your big fat orcs, both of us tap eachother but since i was "suposed" to be topfeeding the nm removes the nw of your dspecs and im actually now hitting in nw rage. you hit me as a bottomfeed, i tanked it, nmed u into nw range, then chained u in range. its devestating.
Finally the big thing is that ultimately your goal though is to design a KINGDOM that doesnt get to nw heavey as your aiming to try to balance across a WHOLE KD, not just min-max the nw of a single prov. Ethan likes to look at single provs and min-max, i go well yes xyz is best nw efficient, and abc is least, so the nw effienct one is better......err maybe but i'd rather look/mix in raw power/acre and then put it up such that if i want the least nw efficient i need some nw efficient provs in my kd to balance it out.
if you look at only a single province the +27% raw boost to offenses on elf/warrior is something, however even slapping 25% hospitals on it will still mean off will drop significantly throughout a war because more powerfull troops means fewer needs to die for a huge impact which is why ns and prop would be very efficient against such a combination.
If we talk sustainability halfing with cheap troops and thievery credits might very well be at the top, but who is going to use halfing for attacking? You chain the halfing right away and it can't draft much, for avian you can simply semi chain with orcs and you don't need to bother ever chaining them fully.
While it might work in theory to trick people into warring you using only specs every war is about raw power and every war is situational in regards to how you use that raw power be it offenses, tpa, wpa, ecconomy, activity and sustainability and unless done kd wide you will stick out and be subjected to different treatment from opponents if your province is significantly bigger and nw is lower than your kingdom fellors.
If you start a war on 3k acres and 800k nw and I start it at 2500 acres and 800k nw but we both get chained you to 600 acres and me to 500 acres which is the same % drop, who then get to keep the bigger output? me on elites or you on off specs?
I get that nw values are important, and happy to see that halfing did not end up with a 8 nw on 5/5 elites, but wars are situational and about how you use your resurces vs your opponent, so even though there is some truth in specs beeing more efficient for its nw value it still does not mean training specs only is the best way to play your province.
I've set my science values down, sometimes way now (10% pop instead of 20%), so the rankings have had a bit of a small reordering. Also, I dropped the 10% homes for everyone, but now split 40% land between stables, TGs, and homes. (I'm optimizing the homes % by race via typing in a higher % until it stops going up - aka, manually.)
Hopefully these new ones also fit the line-wraps on mobile ok still.
Rankings_____OPA____DPA___NW/A__MPNW____%Max
Undead______121.3___52_____202.1___0.857____96.11%
Dwarf________125_____53.6___200.2___0.892___100.06%
No Race______125.2___53.7___200.6___0.892___100.00%
Human Elite___153.8___65.9___241.5___0.91____102.01%
Undead Elite__167.9___72_____260.7___0.92____103.21%
Faery Elite____141.7___60.7___216.3___0.936___104.97%
Faery________131.6___56.4___196.9___0.955___107.07%
Avian________132_____56.6___199.7___0.945___105.93%
Orc_________140_____60_____208.8___0.958___107.42%
Orc Elite______167.2___71.6___247.4___0.965___108.26%
Halfling_______141.8___60.8___209.7___0.966___108.32%
Human_______144.9___62.1___212.4___0.974___109.27%
Elf__________142.2___60.9___207_____0.981___110.03%
Relating to Madchess's point about sustain... that is not something I'm trying to capture. It matters, sometimes a whole lot, but it isn't "raw" power. Same as speed/gains, T/M defense, econ, or basically anything other that "hulk smash" rating. I hope everyone remembers this, and doesn't mistake this for the whole story. (I know there are way too many very fuzzy value judgements that I'm not the best person to be making - there are enough of judgements imbedded in this as it is, and I'm avoid all the really hard ones.) This is one number I hope is useful for picking a race... sure ain't the whole shebang though.
@Bananamancer2000 - almost every time my kingdom has tried an arranged war like you describe it has gone badly wrong. We usually just wave till someone bites - if waving down for feeding we might not even be in full war builds (which means sometimes they jump us while we are only half ready). The hardest part of war for us is usually getting someone to actually fight - so being lower NW but same military lets us get much better odds since the other kingdom will feel like they are stronger by looking at NW. The few times we've gotten big (for us - above T20) it gets a lot more complicated because people start paying a lot more attention to kingdom mix etc. and not just looking at NW alone as the measure of how strong/ready we are. I'd bet you'll find NW mattering a lot more in your new kingdom.