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Since a large segment of the users went Undead this age, I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on how you all would counter them.
Is deep chaining them the best option for crippling their offense by over popping them and forcing them to release offense specs, or should you go the route of NS and MS to kill troops, or should you attack their economy and force them to get aid/steal to be able to afford to attack?
seeing as how they only have to train specs which are cheap and you get spec credits in war, your not really going to cripple them by hurting their economy. i believe you have 2 options when dealing with undead.
1. catch them with their army at home and deep chain them so their elites desert
2. let them be "land banks". we did this last age with orcs. Let them collect acres and at the end up the war chain them down to match the size of the rest of their kd. Im assuming most undead are going to be running low dpa high opa setup to convert as much elites as possible by sending out multiple armies. Since they are going to have low dpa it should be easy to chain them down towards end of war and mop up all those "banked" acres.
also were you in BoL last age? if so you were on the same island i was. haha
Yep, I was there last age :) We actually got put on the same island as one KD that was on our island last age as well, and another KD that we warred last age is now on our island, and we are right by another KD that has Legacy in their name XD Also put on top of that that this is the same island number that we had about 2 ages ago, and we've got a very strange coincidence ;)
@1. We'll definitely want to make them pre-war wave targets if they have elites home during that time.
@2. I like that idea as well. Keep some growth delaying ops/spells on them and they stay fat longer (chastity, storms, greed, IR, MS, explosions), and just before we swap them into chain targets have the thieves unload stealth into NS on them. We've done this with other provinces before. My only concern with this is that they can cheaply train their offense/defense specs and income is increased for everyone this age. They might pump defense to reach a safer level during war (especially during longer wars.) But that shouldn't be a factor in shorter wars.
my KD tried warring you guys last age but you CF'd us. anywho.. to make it easier depending on how the undead plays their province:
1. if they cast warspoils hit them just a few times while their army is out. This way they will be closer to overpop when their army returns with no land and then chain that province hard. This may work easier so you dont have to have as many online when the undeads army returns.
2. Just keep a close eye on their defense. If they start to run away do a NS run or two on them and then let them grow a bit again. Ideally they get fat enough that anyone in the kd can NS them pretty easily. You also dont necessarily NS prior to chaining them since they are going to lose large amounts of land, they should overpop here as well and have some of their army desert which means you can save the stealth for another target.
you cant kill whats already dead!!!! ok i suppose theyre not invincible. i agree attacking the economy would not be that effective since their army is so cheap. also undead will become stronger the longer the war goes on(compared to other races) so taking them out at the end of the war might not be the best idea
read what ordray wrote. "Keep some growth delaying ops/spells on them and they stay fat longer (chastity, storms, greed, IR, MS)" just keep them low on peasants so they cant draft much. if they cant draft their not going to get stronger as war goes on. also i believe many undead are going to be easy to cast mage ops on this age. Most people are running a/t or some form of thievery protection as the first thought that comes to mind is "oh know,! i cant let them ns my elites away" if you run into an undead that is a/t/m they are doing it wrong and you shouldnt worry about them in the first place :P
I'm a Cleric of Kelemvor, so it is my duty to purge this world of the undead abominations! (wonder how many will get that reference...)
If someone starts really booming in peasants, you can always have a couple of thieves and mages kidnap/FB them back down to <1K. That would only take a couple of salvos from a small group of provinces to achieve. I'm going to have to add explosions to that list of ops/spells as well since we would want to stop as much gc and population from coming in as possible. Chastity wouldn't be much use if they could just get aided soldiers. At least with explosions there's a 50% chance that they'll only get 55-80% of the shipment.
Seems for me the main way to fight them... with others undeads, more actives and more organised.
personnality choice can make the differency here...
We just had a war against a bunch of undeads, let me tell you fellas, they do not die whatever you do on them.
No peasants, no buildings, mass trad marched, razed and massacred, the damn things did not die. Then with low acre size, the ns were not effective. It seems like to kill undeads, you need to do a combo of all the above, plus kill the enemy kd economy so that they cant send them aid.
Eventually it seems like the only way to stop undeads is to have the enemy kd with all of the 0 gc so that they cant send their armies out.
With the reduced effects of thievery in comparison to magery . Undead wont be stopped this age, but maybe next one when they make thieves stronger by reducing the nw size dmg penalties.
Other than that , good luck trying to money starve a whole kd so that they cant send 20,000 gc in aid so an undead attacks.
Seems to me like the only way is to before war, mass raze undead by undead so that they over pop, and in war trad march them to disable them . Then once they cant be disable, proceed with massacre and raze to weaken them. But they cant be killed unless they make it so that raze can destroy acres in war, which i would applaud.
edit. Then again this was just from our first war this age , which we won, against the damned undeads . IT looks like one has to break their will not their provinces.
First of all.. You don't necessarily kill a province when you are actually strategically planning a war. To disable an attacking province it usually involves chain-attacks made from multiple provinces (usually done to the least defended province that has acceptable gains).. Game physics will usually force the chained province to release units to actually retaliate
If an attacking province completely suicides (ie, leaving very little defense at home) then usually a wise monarch will ask all the players to attack for max gains and leave some offense (and generals) to make more smaller attacks to chisel down a province to death.. But that is very rare when you are playing in 'elite' kingdoms..
Quote:
Originally Posted by gojete
I completely, and this was my kingdom's experience as well. We are all rogues, and despite incessant NS runs on individual provinces, chaining, 24/7 meteor showers, greed and riots, propaganda, pitfalls, etc, it was VERY hard to kill any of the provinces. The reason it is hard is because they never lose offense, so when chained, MS'ed, and NS'ed, they will still have 100+ OPA when crushed in size. That OPA then let's them quad time around their size and bounce back instantly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gojete
I completely, and this was my kingdom's experience as well. We are all rogues, and despite incessant NS runs on individual provinces, chaining, 24/7 meteor showers, greed and riots, propaganda, pitfalls, etc, it was VERY hard to kill any of the provinces. The reason it is hard is because they never lose offense, so when chained, MS'ed, and NS'ed, they will still have 100+ OPA when crushed in size. That OPA then let's them quad time around their size and bounce back instantly.
NS kills armies out as well as at home, so they do in fact lose offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok22788
Very little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordray
Actually, it's the same rate as armies in, as far as I can remember. Even if elites die at a low rate, dead specs can't be converted.