Am I running too many Homes? Orc/Warrior

[Deathwish238]

Seriously no one has any more insight? I'ld rather not start a new thread...

[insane33]

It looks ok.
What you need is more learns to get better sci and plunders to be able to train military (you need more offence too).

[Deathwish238]

I'm afraid of doing a plunder and then getting retalled! But if I up my dpa, I sacrifice opa...

[Nub]

you are an ORC ffs! get rid of half of those forts and build TGs or homes, you'll get much higher opa this way, than you will be getting dpa with the excess forts. this is of course if you have a proper off specs/def specs/elites ratio. for an orc i would recommend 40% def specs, 60% elites and no off specs. if you are having trouble attacking, you can also raise your draft rate. i would recommend at least 70% for an attacker. you don't need towers either, rely on your kd mates for the runes (or trade gcs for them), or just steal/plunder them.

if i played orc this age i would have run this oow build strat (A/t):

Homes: 400 acres
Farms: 50 acres
TGs: 150 acres
Forts: 75 acres
Guilds: 100 acres
TDs: 200 acres
Dungeons: 25 acres
----------------
Total: 1000 acres

with a DR of 90% oow, you can have 132 mod opa (all elite), 82 mod dpa (51 mod dpa with all elites out). that is while running 3 raw tpa and 2 raw wpa. with 100 bpa in crime sci., and the TDs, your mod TPA will be ~6,6, so you can actually perform thief ops as well. your economy will suck because of the extreme draft rate, though, so you need to make sure you steal and plunder regularly.
this build is also very nw efficient with 1,006 o+dpnw. it won't work in war though.

[_greenie]

fail

[Nub]

nope.

[Deathwish238]

lol greenie, I like your comment and nubs rebutal.


Nub, interesting proposal. Unfortunately there's no way I can completely change everything I've been doing AGAIN.

Although, you bring up an interesting idea...40% Homes and 90% Draft Rate. Holy crap...


Oddly enough, you're saying run a 40% Def Spec and 60% Elite army. I happen to be running a 58% Def Spec and 42% Elite Army. I was shooting for 45 raw practical DPA and 52 raw OPA. With my war build and 200% wages, that came out to 61 mod practical DPA and 68 mod OPA. Running your numbers, I'ld have a 57 mod practical DPA and a 131 mod OPA running 3 raw TPA.

lol that sounds too good to be true. Have you done such a thing? What BE did you have? 70%ish I imagine.


Some numbers I crunched:

Acres 1,757
Trolls 14,759
Ogres 21,963
Thieves 5,271
Total 41,992
Raw DPA 67
Raw OPA 100
DE 110.00%
OE 125.00%

Mod DPA 74
Mod OPA 125
Practical DPA 46
Population 46,698
Wizards 2,344
Draft Rate 89.92%


Do you have more accurate numbers I could use for Defensive and Offensive Efficiency?

[_greenie]

bad idea, waste of a prov, your econ wont support it =)

[Deathwish238]

Well I think it's a great idea...only problem is like you said...you won't make any gc so how the hell are you going to ever train that many troops.

Plunders maybe?

[Toadi]

What's the point of running 20% Thieves Dens if your mTPA is 6.6? You wont be able to do anything with that kind of mTPA.

The overall strategy is crap anyways. 40% Homes is funny.

[Nub]

Deathwish, i do have the exact numbers in an excel spreadsheet, but i do not have access to it right now. however i recall the raw BE was just below 70%, but i assumed 100 bpa in tools sci. as well, so it was higher than that. the OME was ~125% at 200% wages, and DME was ~118%.

actually greenie is right, your econ will not be able to support the huge army with growing acreage as your plunders and stealing will simply not net you enough gcs. the strat i proposed is only viable if you are not going to grow too much, say beyond 2k acres. after that you'll have to lower your DR and start razing homes for banks or hospitals depending on the number of casualties you are suffering. that said, this strat is still best suited to an orc than any other race because of the -50% wages, and you'll need it to support your humongous army.

Toadi is also correct about the mTPA, if you are going to be a proper A/T as an ORC you'll need to run 5 TPA raw to get over 10 mTPA with the modifiers. the strat i proposed was an A/t, not an A/T, so if you are really going to rely on stealing rather than plundering, you'll need more thieves. that will mean a lower opa, so you are not going to be able to hit everyone as you please, but your opa is still going to rock.

about the 40% homes, they are not a necessity per se, and i even managed to get a slightly better o+dpnw (i think it was 1.025) with 30% homes, 22.5% TGs and 10% Forts. i only use them because they provide me with a larger army with the extra pop, but they can easily be exchanged with hospitals or banks and help out the economy. it is a matter of choice, and playstyle.

[AFKain]

Your estimation of off and def per NW are completely off "Nub". Just with military and buildings you land at about 190 nwpa.

132/190= 0.7
51/190=0.27

If you add science thieves and wizards the ratios per NW will drop even more, likely putting you at about the same numbers as a regular orc. The difference is that the regular orc won't have only 1 peasant/acre. With such a bad economy I doubt you can even pay wages, much less replacing elites that you lose on attacks. Sure you can plunder, but you'll have to do that pretty much all the time.

Edit: When I read your post the first time I figured you were saying that you'd have 1 off and 1 def per nw, I guess it is possible that you put them both together into one value for some reason. Anyway if that's what you did you'd not be as far off. But in that case you don't have much of an edge over a regular orc.

[Nub]

the opnw and dpnw were calculated with armies home, and the nwpa was 212 including science, peasants, wizards, thieves, etc.

so, (132+82)/212 = ~1

and yes, i meant opnw + dpnw when i said o+dpnw.

i do see the merit in calculating the o+dpnw with armies out however, so the real value should have been (132+51)/212 = 0,863. thank you for the heads up.

[Zauper]

Nub, what you're proposing is what we used to refer to as a 'static attacker'.

You manage to be an attacker, and go without gaining land, honor, elites, or resources.

Why? Because you have to plunder just to retrain your losses on plunders, can't afford to grow (as you say), etc, etc, etc.

[insane]

lol...love this thread. Has been very informative. Though homes value are highly subjective on the personal level, I find they are of most benefit when tied in with the kingdom's strat (vs a provincial strat)

With all the the discussion, I'm surprised that no one has yet to bring this up.

If you are highly active (2-3 times a day log in) and your kingdom is fairly well organized and at least semi-active (at least 1 a day log in) then I would make trade arrangements within the kingdom for gc/runes/food in exchange for troops.

This way money that would of been otherwise lost to game mechanics can be kept within the kingdom.
This will help your kingdom to grow faster and allow you to get the gc you need for those elites without doing plunders.

Anyway, it's something to discuss with your kingdom

As to dpa/opa, over the ages I've learned it's better to err on the side of offence than defence.
You will actually receive more attacks from being well defended than from being underdefended with an insane amount of offence. As an attacker you should at a MINIMUM have 2 to 1 ratio of off to def. I'd actually try to work it to 3 to 1 ratio.

Anyway, defence is more important when you are larger than your opponents than when you are smaller.


As far as actual build goes, it would depend on if your kingdom was receptive to you being a trader for the kingdom.
But this is what I would do if they are favorable to it.

20% Homes
5% Farms
15% Training Grounds
10% Armouries
15% Hospitals
20% Guard Stations (15% til reach 1 wpa)
20% Guilds (til reach 1 wpa then 10%)
10% Watch Towers (if kingdom runs them (hopefully, cause it will make enemy work harder for basic intel))
10% Lib (if kingdom doesn't run WT)