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Thread: abortion

  1. #16
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    And again. YOU are not going to burn in hell for someone else having a abortion.

    What you are trying to do in essence is to force your beliefs on others.

  2. #17
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    I'm trying to decide if this guy is a troll or not, are there people with internet access that actually have that kind of belief? Seems a bit iffy to me :p

  3. #18
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    It seems to me that SirGerith is the only one that is willing to make a firm stand for what he believes in. Contrary to popular belief, some things are simply black or white, right or wrong, and killing children, irregardless of how old they are is simply WRONG. Leaving out the religious aspect, which seems to be detestable to the people in this thread, (in the interest of full disclosure, I am a Christian and an American) on a simply human and moral level killing an infant is wrong. Having a child is a matter of causality, if you do "A" enough, you will invariably produce "B." If you don't like "B" don't do "A." It's really that simple. As for cases of incest, rape, and teenage pregnancy, they are all traumatic and terrible things to have to go through, although the latter is certainly the least of the bunch, but one should not compound those things by then having the unborn child suffer the punishment of death, simply for having been conceived. Adoption is a viable option should the mother not want to keep the child and i'd rather have my tax dollars going to pay for their care than for a lot of things they are currently paying for.

    Let's go down the argument's one by one.

    1. "There are too many people alive today. More cannot be supported, and it's dumb to even pretend so." There are not too many people alive today. People have been saying that for I don't know how many years. VT2, you would be subscribing to a Paul Ehrilich way of thought. He wrote the book The Population Bomb in the 60's and predicted famine shortages and waste in the years to come, and in fact the exact opposite occurred. Mr. Ehrilich couldn't or didn't predict advances in farming technology and as a result fewer than half as many people die from famine each year now than a century ago, even though our population has quadrupled.

    2. "it's not your body - you have no damn say in what goes on with it." You're right about one thing, it isn't my body, but at least in America I always have a say about what goes on about anything. It's called freedom of speech. People don't like to be judged these days based on their actions, only their thoughts and beliefs. It's a symptom of the moral relativism that plagues American society and probably the world at large. People say things like, "Don't judge me, and I won't judge you," "do what you feel like.." and any number of other feel good slogans to make everything end up to be a wash. Again I reiterate, some things are simply right or wrong, no wiggle room for exceptions because your particular case is somehow different or special and taking the life of an infant when it is most vulnerable is undeniably and unmistakably WRONG.

    I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that most of the people in this thread are supporters of Senator Obama. This is a quote from factcheck.org.

    "As originally proposed, the 2003 state bill, SB 1082, sought to define the term "born-alive infant" as any infant, even one born as the result of an unsuccessful abortion, that shows vital signs separate from its mother. The bill would have established that infants thus defined were humans with legal rights. It never made it to the floor; it was voted down by the Health and Human Services Committee, which Obama chaired."

    Point of fact, i'd rather have the government on the side of protecting people's right to life than protecting peoples "right" to take it. When people are so caught up in a woman's right to kill her child even if it somehow makes it outside of the womb.. forgive my JUDGEMENT on this matter.. but I feel that this is WRONG.

  4. #19
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    You can't get away from the argument by just stating that it is wrong. Why is it wrong? Here many would invoke the bible or some other religious text, which as you noted is of no relevance for many people today. Why is it wrong to kill a fetus but right to kill other living creatures, say a cow?

    Linking abortion and murder is popular. Murder is some definition of the killing of a person, it is banned by society in order to protect the people that make up the society. If a majority would favor murder then murder would be allowed in a democratic country. Murder is banned. Abortion is allowed. Abortion is not the same thing as murder.

    Companies sell cigarettes, alcohol, fat food and whatnot, they all shorten the human life considerably but these products are not banned. The selling of these products will result in the death of many people. Society accepts this. In the same way doctors let the relatives of very sick people "pull the plug". This will undoubtedly result in the death of the patient, this is allowed. Many countries even have a death penalty for certain crimes. This shows us that society differentiates between different forms of the killing of humans and allows some and not others.

    It may be your opinion that it is fundamentally wrong to kill another human being but if the majority disagrees with you there is not much you can do, as long as you are living in a democracy that is.

  5. #20
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    just because a teen made a mistake and got pregnant doesnt mean they should be sentenced to have the rest of her life ruined. if those people against abortion actually had morals they would be trying to help those teens get back on track in life instead of yelling "murderers"

    unless u plan to pay and take care of the teen's baby urself, u have no right to tell any teen to give birth. banning abortion to "stop murder" is sentencing ppl to have their lives ruined just so u can FEEL better about urself, while u r actually doing an extremely immoral thing

  6. #21
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    "Jesus loves the little children, so why do you want to kill them?"

    didn't you just say that they heap unto themselves false prophets? i guess there will be less false prophets this way lol

    anyway, i don't need to be insulted on my morals, or be told about what's right or wrong

    i know what's right and what's wrong, what i also know, is what can change, and what CANNOT change. abortion CANNOT change.

    it will always be there as long as there are dumb women and dumb men, and god knows we have an infinite supply of those...because he fu**ing made them all, right?

    if he didn't want abortion, he shouldn't have made humans so damn stupid

  7. #22
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    Perhaps you're right, I didn't clarify my argument enough, and for that I apologize. I do however think that I did a good job of laying out my personal views and so I'll build from there. I suppose I should again preface this by saying that I am an American and can only comment on American jurisprudence as I can't really name any court cases from other countries. The court case Roe vs. Wade is famous because it supposedly legalized abortion in America. I actually tend to agree with your last statements AFKain, "if the majority disagrees with you there is not much you can do, as long as you are living in a democracy that is."

    I believe that Roe vs. Wade is wrong and should be overturned, and that the issue of abortion should be left to the states to decide what laws they would live by. The United States was built on a principal of federalism and states government's having the right to decide the laws their citizens would live by. As a person that is firmly against abortion I would be able to support my view in the ballot box. And should I lose at the ballot box, there is always the option of last resort provided by the founders of my nation, "voting with your feet." The same could be said about tax policies or any other laws passed by any of the states. It's in this experiment of democracy that would allow the states to compete for citizens and businesses by having laws that encouraged growth. Instead of a referendum by the people of the nation or state as the case may be, a panel of judges made the decision for the people. At least if there were a law on the books one way or the other people could advocate to change the law and actually engage in a debate of ideas rather than tossing around slander and insults.

    I think that was more what I ended up responding to in my previous post, even though that was not my intention. My religious and political views inform my decisions and beliefs and if you disagree with them, I'm more than willing to debate and talk about it, but the insults really aren't necessary, or appreciated.

  8. #23
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    I hope I didn't insult you, if I did that was unintended. Feelings get a bit heated in political debates :)

    Allowing the states to decide for themselves probably would be good, it would be the democratic thing to do. Although if you extended that one could say that letting every person choose for themselves would be the most democratic :p

  9. #24
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    Warheed, we have fundamental differences in what a "mistake" is. I think a mistake is putting on a shirt on backwards, not having sex and conceiving a child. Another fundamental difference we have is that I don't view a new life coming into this world as a punishment, I view it as a chance at redemption. If a woman feels her life is ruined after having a child, well perhaps that is true in one sense.. The life of the girl that was young and carefree is now ruined, but another life has just begun. The life of a woman that will be a mother and will hopefully raise her child to be a good and just person. This isn't me trying to make myself feel better about myself, it's about me trying to point out that there is a better way to live a life, and it doesn't include killing a child in the womb.

    METALLICA, you're right, neither you or I can change the situation in either the US or any other country for that matter; but while I'll accept that to be true, that doesn't mean I'll let well enough alone. I truly believe abortion is wrong and rather than accept the fact that it continues and go on about my day, it's left to me to work toward bring about a better way. Giving up on the issue of abortion, or on people in general is not the way I choose to go about things.

  10. #25
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    AFKain, no I was not insulted by you, it's just that as you said, most people get heated up by this issue and for some reason being religious, Christian or otherwise, gets bashed around like a baseball.

    That said, I'm going to disagree with you on your last statement. =P

    "Although if you extended that one could say that letting every person choose for themselves would be the most democratic :p"

    Yes, I agree that every person should have the right to choose the laws that they live by in a democracy. If people vote abortion into law, again, i'll do my best to advocate for that to change. But at least that is an actual referendum by the people. America is a country of laws, not decisions by court justices. I sincerely believe the words in the declaration of independence.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    A child has the right to life, should natural circumstances provide that to be the case. And in my never to be humble opinion I'd rather have the government on the side of life, rather than death.

  11. #26
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    Hey Metallica, that must mean your a liberal Democrat. The Bible is full of Jesus being a 'socialist'. :)

  12. #27
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    the teen should make her own choice whether she wants abortion or not. if she wants the child she can go have it born, and if she dont want it she go for abortion. we shouldnt have abortion just as we shouldnt force all teens to get abortion.

    and as ive said just because u feel that abortion is "killing a potential life" doesnt mean u should force other people to feel the same. u can try to convince people why they should listen to u, but u cannot force them if they disagree, because lets face it, altho philosphically there MIGHT be similarities that u can ARGUE between abortion and murder, abortion and murder are NOT on the same level of severeness

    now back to teens giving birth. you may feel that a new life being born is a good thing, but that to many teen can mean life goals shattered, and to the baby, it will mean he/she might grow up in poverty, or without parents, or get abused by the mom because he/she is the reason why her life is ruined. now for rich families who can support, and if the teen wants to raise the baby, theres no one to stop her. HOWEVER if a teen is pregnant, and she KNOWS shes faced between abortion and ruining her life AND the baby's, then she damn right better have the right to make that choice.

  13. #28
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    and a friendly reminder to anyone arguing pro-abortion, just remember, the rest of us are saying "abortion should be an OPTION", we are not saying "all teens should get abortion". so do keep that in mind when u make any return arguments

  14. #29
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    VT2 - "Besides, it's not your body - you have no damn say in what goes on with it. If you want a baby so badly, invent a way to grow one outside of the unwilling ladies' wombs."

    I interject here that there are PLENTY of married couples who are unable to have children of their own and would gladly accept the responsibility of raising the child. If teens should not be "punished" with a child and "ruin" their lives, they should at least be "punished" with nine months of pregnancy. Your argument just solidifies my statement that people these days do not understand the concept of personal responsibility.

  15. #30
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    Swirvin' Birds - "And again. YOU are not going to burn in hell for someone else having a abortion.

    What you are trying to do in essence is to force your beliefs on others."

    I am only trying to educate you with facts that were facts for thousands of years up until the past 40.

    METALLICA - "i know what's right and what's wrong, what i also know, is what can change, and what CANNOT change. abortion CANNOT change."

    Oh, contraire mon frere. The ballot in Colorado currently includes a bill that, when passed, will give children the same rights as we have at CONCEPTION. It will only be a matter of time before it goes to the other states to pass, and then the nation as a whole. Roe vs Wade will be a distant memory.

    waheed - "and as ive said just because u feel that abortion is "killing a potential life" doesnt mean u should force other people to feel the same."

    While I respect your view, in essence, your argument should not make me feel pressed to accept anything as truth.

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