abortion

[METALLICA]

"METALLICA, you're right, neither you or I can change the situation in either the US or any other country for that matter; but while I'll accept that to be true, that doesn't mean I'll let well enough alone. I truly believe abortion is wrong and rather than accept the fact that it continues and go on about my day, it's left to me to work toward bring about a better way. Giving up on the issue of abortion, or on people in general is not the way I choose to go about things."

actually, it isn't my way, i am just stating fact and being reasonable with the nature of this issue, and my inability to do anything about it.

i don't like that i will die someday, doesn't mean i can change that fact. i guess your logic is to go about your life optimistically and along the standards that you would have wished for had you been able to correct the flaws of human nature. nothing wrong with that, i guess, but though it is respectable, it isn't fully logical.

"Hey Metallica, that must mean your a liberal Democrat. The Bible is full of Jesus being a 'socialist'. :)"

you know im not a liberal democrat. im not politically affiliated at all. i just like arguing with people that assume loyalties to flawed systems. the political spectrum is just two houses built on sand, with a rock in between.

i prefer to say that i stand upon the rock.

"Oh, contraire mon frere. The ballot in Colorado currently includes a bill that, when passed, will give children the same rights as we have at CONCEPTION. It will only be a matter of time before it goes to the other states to pass, and then the nation as a whole. Roe vs Wade will be a distant memory."

that's colorado...the rest of the country would hardly follow suit. you're quite hopeful, and i admire your childlike innocence, but you are wrong, you just don't know it yet.

[waheed]

there are plenty of kids in 3rd world countries to adopt if anyone wants to

i think the fundamental question that those against abortion should ask is "is it right to sentence a teen AND her baby to a life time of misery and destroy their chance of getting back on track in life?" (plz do not argue about this statement, because i know there are some teens out there who either have the resources to support themselves and the kid, and some teens are organized enough to raise the kid and have a good life, but there are PLENTY of ppl who arent organized or rich enough to do both and they are really faced with abortion or no life)

another question u might wanna ask urself is "if my own daughter is pregnant, should i force her to give birth and ruin all hopes for a good career?" (assume of course u r not rich and powerful)


this is kind of like smoking. we know its bad, we know its bad for people around them, but we have no right to make a law to ban smoking. (some ppl might be tempted to, but we all know its not the right thing to do)

[METALLICA]

Aye

[SirGerith]

Actually, I have a daughter. First of she is being brought up to fear and revere God. She will most likely follow in her mother's footsteps and be a stay at home wife and mother. That in and of itself is the whole reason for the unemployment rate and most of the moral disintegration in this country.

And, yes, if she gets preganant while she is still living in my home, she WILL have the baby. I feel confident that she will make that choice herself. Because she will know that her mother and I will raise the child if she is unable or unwilling to.

[SirGerith]

As far as the rest of your statement, that you specifically so not want me to argue with, waheed, just listen to yourself. That statement is absurd, so am I to take it that if the child were born, and the mother decided that she wasn't having any fun, then she could terminate the child's life?

Not to mention the only track they are going to get back on is the one that leads to self destruction. Which inherently takes other people down that road too.

Look, this a nation of ME ,ME , MEs that keep saying gimme, gimme, gimme, and call me everything from biggot to racist. I realize my views are not popular. I know that there is little chance of ever changing your mind. But I am not commanded by Jesus to change your mind, I am commanded to tell you the truth. You have to change your mind on your own, or continue to disbelieve me and disobey God. .................................................................... YOUR CHOICE...........................

[Mickster]

SirGerith, et al

What if your 16 year old daughter is raped , and she becomes pregnant because of it?

Or did someone already bring this up?

If they pass that law defining life occurs at the moment of inception... does that mean that we'll have to take a stop-watch to every act of carnal relations, just in case? Will we have to track it down to the exact minute? Second?


Oh, and I thought your god was a "Loving " god. Why are you teaching your daughter to fear your god? Isn't that contradictory?

(One of the great things about not being christian is I don't have to worry about going to "hell". Since it doesn't exist, I can't "go there'. Oh, and same thing for that 'heaven" place).

[RAKIdaRHINO]

life occurs at the time of inception, any other definition is plain out retarded.
abortion is "murder" in the sense that you prevent a life from evolving.
abortion is bad, but the alternative is worse.

legalized abortions ftw.

[waheed]

SirGerith wat if ur daughter dont want to, and u know her life will be ruined if she has the kid. will u still force her?

actually im not saying "me, me, me", im saying the exact opposite. in case u havent noticed im actually a guy so i cant really get pregnant. i am saying think on behalf of the pregnant teen and feel their dilemma

when did i call u racist?

and again i just wanna emphasize, im NOT saying everyone should get abortion, im saying people should be given the CHOICE to have abortion. if u want to be moral and teach ppl its murder, then the right way to do it is to EDUCATE people, just like how we are telling kids smoking is bad, then hope they can make the right decisions. however FORCING them to make a decision is NOT a good way to go.

[RAKIdaRHINO]

indeed, if the same effort that was put in to the anti abortion question was put in to sexual education and teen pregnancy prevention (and well, all unwanted pregnancies basically) then wed all be far better off..

i dont understand the need to dehumanize the fetus like alot of pro-abortion people wants to do. it is a life that you take, and we need to remember that and treat it as the serious thing it is. thats equally important as any SE or pregnancy prevention we make, because if abortion is "normalized" or whatever then most of the SE and pregnancy prevention goes out the window.

abortion doesnt necessarily have to be seen as something bad, but definitely unwanted. (not saying that people want to have abortions and that those that do dont suffer from them, just dont think we should avoid ending up there)

[METALLICA]

"Look, this a nation of ME ,ME , MEs that keep saying gimme, gimme, gimme, and call me everything from biggot to racist. I realize my views are not popular. I know that there is little chance of ever changing your mind. But I am not commanded by Jesus to change your mind, I am commanded to tell you the truth. You have to change your mind on your own, or continue to disbelieve me and disobey God."

the truth is not as powerful as the people who deny it

where did god go? what happened to the days when god punished those who disobeyed him in clear view, so that people would ACTUALLY fear him?

just because reality seems too good to be true, doesn't mean that a 'god' had to make it.

i never did believe in the big bang, mainly because it is just as likely to be right with the proof that it has as any theory with or without a god.

why is your god the real one? how can you prove it to me? and if you can't, then why do you insist that everyone live under the rules of this god who's existence you can't prove?

what if there is no god, and your belief is nothing more that blind hope that if you live life good enough, that you'll get rewarded, and if you live it bad you'll be punished? this blind hope that ultimately, life IS fair.

i don't think so

[RAKIdaRHINO]

where did god go?

who said he ever existed in first place? =)

mainly because it is just as likely to be right with the proof that it has as any theory with or without a god.

likelyhood and chance arent really accurate in terms of the universes creation. whats relevant to remember is that the big bang theory per se isnt anti-god (or pro-god).

the only fair thing about life is death. we all die.

[Magn]

Life starts at the moment of inception... I guess.

However, for those who don't believe in the concept of a "soul", the center of a person's identity lie solely in their brain.

Thats how we determine how worthy of good treatment you are: by how smart (and thus how aware) you are.

Most people don't give too much about squashing a bug, because a bug is not that smart or aware of much for that matter.

We kill cattle for food.

Now, I say cattle is a whole lot smarter and evolved than a a foetus, especially one that doesn't have a brain.

So if we can kill cattle and not call it murder, than we can kill a foetus with no brain and not call it murder.

Sure, we killed a potential life, but we do that all the time whenever we abstain from having sex when we could have.

If you argue that all potential life should be protected, then you tell me that I should go fornicate with the first girl I'm attracted to if the attraction is mutual.

Am I happy that my mother didn't get aborted? Sure (she was a 28 years old single mom btw).

However, truth is that my mother was old enough and ready to have a child and she did a darn good job at educating me and provided a good life for me.

Had I been set to be the son of some carefree teenage girl who would have done a loosy job at educating and had been destined to become some drug addict with AIDs, then I think I would rather not have been born.

I know people from unfavorable backgrounds who would rather not have been born.

There is a lot of ethics to debate here. You can argue religion, but truth be told, such arguments will only convince the religiously inclined. If you want to convince everybody else, you'll have to find something else.

As for using the law as an argument, don't assume that the law is perfect. Law originated from a desire to enforce certain concepts in ethics and so will always be a step behind the ethical ideals that created it. Using law to argue ethics is, imo, backwards and redudant.

Oh, and its "au contraire mon frère". Not "oh, contraire mon frere".

[AFKain]

As for using the law as an argument, don't assume that the law is perfect. Law originated from a desire to enforce certain concepts in ethics and so will always be a step behind the ethical ideals that created it. Using law to argue ethics is, imo, backwards and redudant.

The law is the agreed upon definition of what is ethical and unethical. Every person has his and her own ethics and one cannot say that someone's opinion about what is ethical and not is wrong. Sure you can make all kinds of arguments supporting your opinion of what is ethical but unless you convince the other person that you are right then his/her opinion about what is ethical is worth as much as yours. In my opinion the law, what the majority of the people consider ethical and unethical, ought to be of interest when discussing ethics.

[RAKIdaRHINO]

potential life isnt life. life starts at inception. once the egg is fertilized life begins. simple as that. cattle isnt human either, but i understand what youre trying to say.

[AFKain]

Why is a fertilized egg worth more than other forms of life?