War & Honor mechanics are WRONG!

[TPAKTOPA]

May be many of you watched our long war ASCENDECNY vs Seduction TF.

This war is one more proof that war mechanics ( and may be Honour mechanics) must to be changed. Let me point at few things.

1. War Win and WithDraw are let to be at will of the monarches and KD will. Which is good and fair, when you face a cultured opponent. But in other case, when someone is loosed, he just can not to WD and to stay as long as he wishes. Which Seduction used that once more in our war. They have habit not to admit their loose, as you can read in many articles at AR.

2. NW difference protection is very good - it protects lower guys not to be ganged from biggers - more troops loose they get and funny gains.

3. Honour system , where smaller guys gain much much honour then bigger, can be easly abused. When hits are exchanged between smaller and bigger province, smaller one takes a LOT of honor, while bigger one takes almost nothing back. Add NW difference protections, some internal razes to keep small size (keeping high wpa/tpa such way too), OP's has a lot wider NW range then attacks, and gues what .... a province with 1/3 of your size feeds on your honor, and you can't do a sh*t.

4. PK protection in war is a good thing so provincies can't be killed one by one when war starts, and make it no-fun for killed provincies. But in long wars that's a flaw. How can you PK a province when it receives AID and explores, while you get 2 acres per trad march ?

I expect now a flow of many and contradicts proposals how to fix all of that things. But I have one good proposal to fix all that things at once. After a time mark (like 7 days, or something) remove all that softness in the wars. Make it a though war. So dead clinch is avoided and a winner is promoted ( sooner or later ).

And let it become
THOUGH WAR TIME
(Could be called also STUBBORN WAR TIME)
1. Raze razes land too, not only buildings in war.
2. NW diffrences gains wides likes 2-3 times
3. Honour is exchanged regardless NW equall in both ways.
4. Exploing is forbidden ( IMHO that must to forbiden like paradise in wars at all)

These time-switched changes will not allow a KD, iniatilly bigger then you, when you bring it to 1/2 of your size , to stay in war. And even worse, not only to stay in war, but kick you from 30th place in honour charts to out of honour charts. While it becomes from 40th place to second. In such a way a stronger KD will be promoted, not allowing to make first war last one too.

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About Seduction itself. Our KD is divided in opinion about them.

From one side, they show us a fair play ( no x-logging were mentioned also no interfering from outside from their alliance), their great activity, game knowlidge and tactics. I salute that for them.

But from another side, they did used game mechanics in a improper way, and each improper use of game mechaincs is an clear abuse. And abusing honor system in such a way is not a nice thing (IMHO).

IF we pass that part with abusing, it were a great war, thanks them for that. And were a great fight from both sides for sure.
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Some info from our paper, which makes it clear that war should to be over a lot earlier then it did. Though I must to admit that OP's are not shown, which were Seduction advantage.

Statistics from ASCENDENCY paper ( a lot of attacks made in that are made in packs in short time are missing)
OOW hits
Actions against enemy
Total Attacks Made: 38 (315 acres)
Trad. March 1 (315 acres)
Learn 33
Plunder 2
Failed attack 2 (failed 5.3%)

Actions from enemyTotal Attacks Made: 3 (215 acres)
Trad. March 1 (215 acres)
Learn 2

WAR Hits
Actions against enemy
Total Attacks Made: 951 (127,130 acres)
Trad. March 691 (106,413 acres)
Learn 3
Plunder 1
Raze 123 (15,046 acres)
Failed attack 46 (failed 4.8%)
Conquest 6 (230 acres)
Ambush 43 (5,441 acres)
Massacre 38 (121,961 people)

Actions from enemy
Total Attacks Made: 604 (92,261 acres)
Trad. March 576 (91,830 acres)
Failed attack 19 (failed 3.1%)
Ambush 9 (431 acres)

P.S. Once again, I want to thank Seduction. It were great war, great challenge, great activity on both sides. Nice fight, a hard win.

[Reaper]

I think I agree with you on the general idea here. The War/Honour system could be improved for sure.

But this makes me wonder...
"a province with 1/3 of your size feeds on your honor, and you can't do a sh*t"

A prov thats 1/3 of your size shouldnt be able to break your def, if it can then you must have suicided or smth. And if it can OP you to much then maybe you should have stopped doing trad marchs so you didnt get so fat?

[rosedragoness]

You can't hope to gain everything at war. You need to pick either land, honor, or war win. If you can get all, it is either great or you facing a ghetto.

The wpa tpa system is made so TM, which cant get much honor compared topfeed landgrab, have theirs benefit.

Bottomfeed topfeed honor system made to define honorable as 'not pick the weak'.

We had discussed two ways of how to PK prov at war in #strategy, so I don't think we need to bring raze to raze land at war.

Last but least,
You can always tell them that honor is not important compared to being hated by another KDs or such. Just blacklist them, don't give them war. Or if you pissed enough, I'm sure you will out TOO MUCH bigger and can PK theirs most honorable prov OOW.

[TPAKTOPA]

Yes, we speaked at #strategy about PK-ing, and we get to conlusion that an active province is impossible to PK with days ( not to speakiing about 25 such).

Or if you pissed enough, I'm sure you will out TOO MUCH bigger and can PK theirs most honorable prov OOW.

I like the idea. But what when they are alliance, and you are not ? Now we have to join alliance too, cause the war system gives retarded people option to dead-clinch ?

Just fix the war system, so when some time-line is passed, to make war harder. And stronger KD will be promoted instead of hiding behind GB and NW protection with weeks, or even for an age. Tell me, if I am a stubborn, and don't press WD button for an entire age, how will you force me ?

Also it were suggested to me that we should to WD ... so is this right ? Is this the point of war system ? Win is not for the best one but for the most stubborn one ?

[Dolgil]

Just a question here. Did you ever stop to think of massacring them? Then they could not op you and would be vulnerable to ops themselves.

Getting them to withdraw may mean something different than what you think. It's clear that as long as they could get honor, they would stay in the war. Prevent or reverse that and you would probably have your war win.

[TPAKTOPA]

Dolgil read before write, ok ?
Massacre 38 (121,961 people)

[VT2]

The system for wars works wonderfully as it is.
You've experienced the same thing everyone does when they battle a ghetto they tease and make fun of - the classic move called 'will never surrender, ever!'

When you encounter this move, you have three options: 1) diplomacy. Make them see the errors of their way, and trade tips, respect, and hints for a withdrawal; 2) withdraw. Withdraw your own kingdom, and go war someone else; 3) stay at war until they tire. This is the most commonly used option.

There's a fourth, inofficial option, and it's titled 'whine as loud as possible about the war-system being broken on the big Utopian board.'

[toast]

compared to the # of other hits you made the # of massacres you guys made was almost non existent.

[VT2]

Regarding your question on surrender: I wouldn't force you to surrender.
I'd keep eating you, until you had no acres and honor left, as I've done with countless opponents in the past.

You're sitting in a war you're losing badly, and we're gaining heavily from - why would I even attempt to make you withdraw, unless it was in the my best interest to get out fast, in which case I'd withdraw myself, because that's a lot faster?

[Eudoxus]

toast is totally right here. Massacres are overpowered in this game if they are used.

A Kingdom we fought was a Semi-Suiciding KD but for the first 24 hours of war they did 2 attacks each and 25 active provinces... so 50 attacks and they did about 40 of them as massacres. I was one of the fist targeted and i lost 200 acred of land to one Traditional March but took 11 other massacres.... i had 2300 acres from 2550 and I had 4500 pezzies from 20,000 and a destroyed TPA/WPA and my military was in seriously rough shape due to losses. Then they continued to Op me heavily since i had a horrible TPA/WPA. Propaganda, Night Strikes, Nightmares. They basically kept destroying my army and T/W ratios and any time i logged on i never had more then 250 soldiers to train so rebuilding was out of the question. Thankfully for me the war ended at min time and they hadn't come around to me with TM's yet so i left war with a wrecked province but still 2300 acres. The worst part is that in War massacres destroy land too so not only was my BE% shot but out of my 2300 acres I left war with 600+ Barren Acres and I was constantly rebuilding what i could in war.... the most important buildings to keep up def and pop. It probably took me 48Hrs to re-Max my pop and rebuild my army fully. My WPA/TPA did get back fast but still.

If your KD had aimed at 2 Provs at once and laid a min of 15 Massacres each then move on it would have been the end of their Ops and you could keep up their size so Honor gains were in your favor... keep em fat but make em useless. The KD that did this to us took out main attackers first and then immediately went after the problematic T/M/Hybrids of our KD.... with the first 48 hrs our KD had lost two of the biggest attackers and our two strongest Hybrids had been reduced to below average Ratios. They continued this in the last 24 hours of that war and we withdrew to save our land. I was a lord with 2000 honor when this happened.... i left a peasant with 750 honor... with the honor created from war they easily gained 1500 honor from me alone.

Massacres are completely un-utilized and after that war we now use that tactic to disable some of our enemies when they pose a greater threat.

I figured i'd relay my experience to show you that massacres are very effective if used right. It's a way to kill pop/troops off quickly and raze acres in the process. Consider this TPAKTOPA. I am in now way trying to say you're wrong about anything... I just think that the true advantage of massacres had not been brought to light yet.

[toast]

btw in my limited experience

Massacres >>> raze in war.

Massacres also destroy buildings and peasants/wiz/thieves AND -2 hour atk time

raze destroys buildings only... and like i said in my experience not a whole lot more then massacre. unless there is a HUGE size difference

so i see no point in using raze over massacre unless your a 1mill nw prov hitting a 200k one... anyone care to prove other wise?

[TPAKTOPA]

I am totaly agreed that massacres are very powerfull in war. That they are more effective then razes. While our enemy were higher in NW and also did land grabs we did 2 waves with massacres in begining in war (except our chained provinices) . I know that.

BUT raze is NOT affected by NW difference. When you do a massacre on a province that is 1/2 or 1/3 of your NW, gains are funny - like 2 FB's. Return time is longer with more then 50%.

And I am not speaking about tactics. I am speaking about makeing war HARDER if it last too long. Cause if it last too long, that means both sides think they are better. Remove *****ing protection, and lets the better KD wins. Not like now - lets the more stubborn KD win.

VT2 10x for visiting my topic. Too bad this time you are not on my side. You don't like tough wars or what ?

[octobrev]

If theyre 1/3 your size then dont worry about the honour. If it really bothers you then withdraw and razekill their provs oow or from a fakewar even so that they wont declare again. Topfeeding for honour is called ~strategy~ not ~abuse~

[Blitz]

I like the idea from the first thread. But I think that even only raze-dystroys land too after 7 days- is good enough to prevent such things as the war he was talking about. Ofcourse there are lots of wars like that.. it's not the only one.

[TPAKTOPA]

I like the idea from the first thread. But I think that even only raze-dystroys land too after 7 days- is good enough to prevent such things as the war he was talking about.

10x Blitz.
That's the main idea - topfeeding , other things to be same. But not to overuse such things. If they really think they are though, then let's proove it.