Dwarf/Shepherd in war can be strong

[waheed]

of course i missed a lot, if i write everything then the whole page will be filled :p

we've played dwarves 2 ages ago (not full dwarf luckily) and we've warred with good dwarf kingdoms, we know their weaknesses and how serious they are. its actually a very common mistake, many many ppl underestimated dwarf thievery penalty and many top kds chose dwarf that age and all regretted it. and most likely they wont make the same mistake again (at least for the real top kingdoms)

as for fog, its not exactly a new thing, various races had it for a long time and ppl know how to deal with it

[waheed]

and dont underestimate gnomes. if u look at it its very similar to halflings back when it pwned

gnomes vs halflings:
+35% thief vs +40~50%
300gc theif vs -50% thief loss
200gc vs 150gc elites (5/4)

as u can see they are VERY similar. yes halflings had more nw efficient elites, but they also had -10% gain, and they didnt have +15% pop

its pretty safe to say gnomes = halflings. and those who remember those ages surely remember how good halflings were the 2 ages before mehul removed them. back then halfling wasnt the most popular race, avians were. but the age was full of examples of halfling kds kicking the **** out of avian kds (unfortunately we were avians T_T. luckily tho we didnt run into any halfling kds, the only good kingdom we warred was a fellow avian kingdom)

so dont underestimate them!

[furyfury]

If you know how to choose the right personalites, and you know how to play, and you know what the heck you're doing or suppose to do, you can bring out the best of that race and personalites. Again, and again, and again, this is at least 25 v 25 war. Team work & inteligents of a kingdom can bring out the best of a race & personalites.

I do not get, why do you people argue which races & personalites are the best. So what if you think a certain races/personalites are powerful than any other race/personalites, if you get hit by at least 10 provinces, you would still say your race/personalites is the best among the others? -_-

It is how you use that race/personalites to help your kingdom win a war, and change according to situations. No race/personality is the best among the others.

[waheed]

a good player using dwarf/rogue can beat a noob using whatever. that doesnt make dwarf/rogue a good race

yes u have a point, but good race setups will bring the best potential out of good player/kingdoms. otherwise why not just have everyone pick random race

[furyfury]

of coz, make sure the combination of a race and personality doesn't contradict with 1 another.

But, what matters most is take it as a kingdom rather than 1 man show. See which is more suitable with your own kingdom.

[IKKA]

I agree with Waheed people or judging dwarf only by their advantages but closing thieir eyes for all their disadvantages. Dwarf for warring sucks and here are some reasons why.

- Elites to expensive to rebuild
- No reall protection against magic
- Need WT every single war (Space problem)

BE is nice but when you don't have peasants your income suck and your BE will drop too.. Dwarf have except from Fog no real benefits in war. The free buildings looks nice but it also means that you can't double speed build in war, which will make you less flexible.

Only combo Dwarf might work is IMO mystic, but that's just my humble opinion :)

[clarey]

strongly agree with waheed, though I'm looking at the thievery penalty more. Anything with a thievery penalty = bad since thievery is pretty strong. In war assuming everyone runs equal or similar tpa the dorf will still be the first one to get kidnapped from ;)

-30% thievery would require approx 26 bpa in thievery to overcome which is approx a month in active assuming you do a couple of learns and incr. sci rate as well. During that time, people will also be amassing that amount of sci and compared to a hummie, gnome, DE (since people seem inclined to play them as TMs) your dorf wouldn't be able to compare.

As said, BE is a weak way to judge a province. A high BE is nice sure, but most of the time it is overrated when considering war buildings. Dwarf inability to speedbuild during war also sucks, cos sometimes you want to selectively choose what buildings to SB.

As to IKKA i think its easy enuff to defend against magic as a dorf, I was given a dorf sage this genesis and it had 3 wpa pretty easily. Tho ye, even with 2 raw tpa and 15% WT i was getting opped to ****. Had to bump it up to 20% WT before I really saw the effects I wanted.

[Ishandra]

Bijo, from your original post I would say you need to change your build. You have 5% guilds and 5% WT.

Even if the enemy is running heavy attacker as opposed to hybrid or T/M, you will be destroyed by ops. you wont be able to rebuild your army after being Kidnapped and FBed but you will be building your land. You'll end up land and NW fat then get destroyed.

If everyone is running the same, you also have little chance of getting many CBs and no chance of getting SoMs. You have no unique ops or offensive spells.

[WolfysBack]

Ok guys, for the last time, unless OMAC has had a mindfart in the last 5 min, DORFS DONT HAVE FOG ANYMORE. And the free buildings are good for longwars, but thats about it. Their leets are still to expensive, so who cares if they're 7 or 17?

[Benjiman]

I'm pretty sure they do have fog :P

[radinet]

WolfysBack : Nothing was said about fog removed from Dwarves. Go install some updates.

waheed : Well, there are some of your points that I strongly disagree with (like Dwarf is only good for fog in KD blah blah), but I won't argue with you about them, since I intend to have people like you to continue on underestimating Dwarves. I, after all, enjoy giving my opponents a good surprise.

IMMHO, Dwarves > Gnomes in overall performance. Gnomes can go to hell with their specs, especially their horrible troop death. Even DE Rogue > Gnomes when it comes to A/T or S. Thief.

[CaptRedLemur]

Dwarf for warring sucks and here are some reasons why.

- Elites to expensive to rebuild
- No reall protection against magic
- Need WT every single war (Space problem)

Just gotta point out the flawed part of your list; No real protection against magic--- they do it's called Magic Shield. And if you mean something more, well neither do Humans or gnomes or Orcs--- so that's a pointless argument. Unless you meant thievery and that they have a thievery penalty; that makes far more sense. However the rest I do agree...

Waheed - you make good arguments for sure and thank you for doing so! But *DWARVES (not Orcs) this age are still better than the ages you played them. Dwarves solo - any one race solo has some advantages and disadvantages in a KD as they stick out like a sore thumb --- or even just a few.

I don't know --- I don't think Dwarves are the TOP race and not the bottom which is what Waheed was arguing. I don't think any race "sucks" this age. That is under the ideal circumstance (KD and makeup) and with the right combo/player.

[waheed]

we had a partial orcs setup last age and theres no way orcs this age are better than last

[CaptRedLemur]

Oops I meant *Dwarves not Orcs... bah. I edited my post now but just to clarify =)

[crimzonking]

Going back to the original post, even though the discussion has moved on:

You may be Shepherd, but the bonus alone won't grow more food than you eat. You're going to need some Farms.
As has already been pointed out 5% WT isn't nearly enough for Dwarf. I played Dwarf this age, running mostly 100-110% BE and needed 20% WT to have an effective thievery defense in war. Assuming your higher BE and the decreased thievery bonus you MIGHT end up getting away with only 5% WT, but I think in the end you'll need at least 10% to deter thieves. I would get those extra % points from the Guard Stations.
And no Hospitals either? You don't necessarily need them, but after warring for a day or two you'll wish you had them .