War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
If handled properly (e.g. not made compulsory), this could be a huge boon for higher education in the US. Too many kids see their freshman year as a time to screw around on their parents' buck, wasting a semester or a year of tuition before dropping out. People who earn their education tend to value it more, and get more out of their classes as a result.
sure community service is a good thing - but not federally mandated - if a school wants to put it into their program and they can afford it more power to them - but if it is federally mandated - then you need the $$ to implement it and you need someone to supervise it - and the teachers have enough on their shoulders already ....
Getting such a program to work as intended would certainly not be easy, which is why I preceded my remark with "If handled properly." The general principle is great, but it's difficult to say how well it would work in implementation. In terms of cost, though, the program could be made to (at least partially) pay for itself.
You're right to question this sort of federal program. No Child Left Behind seems to have done the exact opposite of what it was intended to do. The efficacy of the program would have everything to do with the implementation details.
I'm sorry, who dislikes Obama for no reason other than a democrat label? Don't call other people sheep when you blindly follow McCain or whoever would have been the Republican nominee.Originally Posted by BFD
I already told you people who vote Obama wouldn't have changed their minds based on this joke of an argument. Even if I believed that he changed his own website, how on God's Earth is that dictator like?
It must be hard having to get used to the notion that you'll have a President with common sense after supporting braindead Bush for the last eight years. Are you going to be able to sleep now that Republican fear tactics failed to win them an election?
That's really up to whether I believe you wouldn't have modified it on your own. You seem to be prejudice against Obama being President, and I quoted how I first saw it, so I'm going to believe to choose to believe you modified it to fit your own anti-Obama agenda.what I posted was a direct quote from his site -- didnt take him long to change his mind again! or at least to make it look like he did
So your argument is that Obama is trying to implement a good thing, but the good thing is now bad because the government will start expecting people to be half-decent human beings and rewarding them for choosing to do it when they don't have to. And you also have a problem that something you don't want to see done can't be supervised accurately?sure community service is a good thing - but not federally mandated - if a school wants to put it into their program and they can afford it more power to them - but if it is federally mandated - then you need the $$ to implement it and you need someone to supervise it - and the teachers have enough on their shoulders already ....
You seemed far more logical than this when I first met you in Utopia.
Go read it properly rather than doing ctrl+f "require".
Congratulations, you've proven nothing. It still implies the exact same thing I quoted in my post, that if you do 100 hours of community service while in college you get $4,000 for it.Require 100 Hours of Service in College: Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.
You can say that the word require is in there as many times as you like, but the fact of the matter is the description clearly states that there will be a tax credit of 4,000 for people going to college who do 100 hours of community service. If you choose not to do it, you simply pay $4,000 more. If you had to do it, there would be a clear punishment for not following through with it, now wouldn't there?The word forced may not be in that but it can be legalistically construed as forced.
For one thing it has the word "required" in the "Integrate Service into Learning" subsection "Require 100 Hours of Service in College" part of Obama's plan. [1]
You would have fit in perfectly in 1940.Therefore it is reasonable to assume he intends it for school too, given that he is most certainly a communist.
Even if that is the case it's not asking very much.It is called forced voluntary community service. As for setting a goal to do 50 hours in six years, it says:"Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year."
To me it sounds more like 50 hours each year.
It is the equivalent of 1 hour of community service a week.
Anyone who complains about this is a joke and will be lucky to find work at McDonalds.
It's human rights that's the issue more-so than the U.S. constitution, but I agree with you.As for Bush's wiretapping, and guantanamo. I personally think Bush should of been impeached, I petitioned for it. Bush is an evil man, who totally disregards the US Constitution.
Good observation. So if we have the freedom of expression, and a student flips off a teacher, should the child not be allowed to be expelled? School is a privilege, schools are allowed to punish children, and the government is allowed to impose sanctions on things they are funding.Regarding it not being considered forced because said individual will just drop out, it doesn't exactly fly because parents want the child to go to school.
A lot of people will find life hard enough if they can't manage 1 hour of community service per week. They may as well drop out of school now if they won't be able to handle that as they would be useless working any job.I imagine some parents would perceive, or truly do not have a choice regarding schooling of the children. I think it is illegal, or fast becoming illegal in parts of the country to choose homeschooling. Than of course, a lot of people find life harder due to dropping out.
You mean the President Clinton who is well known for doing a great job with the economy is anywhere near as much at fault as Bush for the economic meltdown that was heavily caused by the war in Iraq that skyrocketed the national debt?The Economic meltdown has been coming for at least three decades now. Part of the groundwork for the current economic meltdown was set by President Clinton(a democrat).
Yes, the government gets off on 15 year old kids helping to organize a charity event for handicapped people...Volunteer work might and might not be stressful, however in this case it is still forced. It is still work without pay in the middle to high school, it will still be getting things done that the government wants done for free and forced.
LMAO. Anyone who calls volunteer service "hard" has to be among the laziest people on the continent.I suspect it will be hard types of work in this case.
No it doesn't. They are not forced by the government into going to school. They are also not forced to pay if they do choose to go into a school funded by the government.Like BlueFaeryDust said, it violates amendment XIII.
Not surprised. Let me know when you find a jail punishment for people who don't do 100 hours of public service a year in college. I'm sure we'll never hear about it, but keep up the optimism.I suspect there is some kind of trick to the following statement:"Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year.", when it comes to the source of the $4,000. But I am still looking into it.
OT: I know I make a lot of sarcastic remarks, but I do appreciate some of your arguments dka.
Last edited by Greeney; 08-11-2008 at 19:40.
Strictly speaking, he is stipulating that you must complete community service in order to recieve credit from a governemt accredited institution. As such, he would be doing nothing that is not already widely accepted. You must have this many math credits or that many english credits etc.
From a Constitutional standpoint, you are close. The "Department of Education" is not outlined as an enumerated power of the Federal Government, by the Constitution, and is, therefore, illegal. Education was, for most of the history of the US the responibility of the community, or at most, the State. The fact that idiots with a liberal bias control most of our education system only serves to propagate more idiots, controlled from age 5, whom are not only dull-witted, but completely ignorant of their ever shrinking rights, as outlined by the Constitution.
Congratulations America, you have elected a man whom shall forge another link in the chains you place around your own necks.
Well, under your definition of 'forced' doesn't all homework, studying, test taking and school hours apply? I mean, we do require our kids to take test and pass them, right? They are required to sit in that school chair for 8 hours. Is that slavery?
If that's slavery, kunte kinte got screwed twice.
homework is slavery and against the human rights omg hide!
I know this quote is directed at Bfd, however Various sources say that is how Obama changed his website too and I have seen the page change a bit myself.
I read it properly, it says: "Require 100 Hours of service in College : Obama and Biden will establish a new American Opportunity Tax Credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year."
Require is require, it doesn't mean one chooses whether he works, it means
one must which means its mandatory if one wants to go to or stay in college.
emphasis mine.
As for the argument that it does not violate amendment XIII because the said individual gets money.
The money is not allowed to be used for anything except college, government chooses what one does with that money.
It still counts as against ones will or coercion if the individual does not want to do the work.
Amendment XIII reads: "Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."
Slavery may be defined as being forced to work without pay, however
amendment XIII also mentions involuntary servitude. Involuntary servitude is a little more broad in meaning.
There is nowhere that I can find that says if one chooses not to do it they
just get fined $4,000.
With bureaucracy anything is possible, therefore the penalty could be much
more than just a $4,000 fine.
If it becomes law and it is vague, probably it is more liable to be
interpreted in a variety of ways, which is very dangerous.
The penalty could be one can't graduate.
Which can indeed be interpreted as a form of being coerced.
One has very limited opportunity usually if they don't graduate from college.
Involuntary servitude is defined as: working against ones will for the benefit of another due to coercion.
Although involuntary servitude, and slavery is closely related it is defined slightly different.
I think the difference in the definition of slavery is that one who is in slavery has a total lack of freedom.
Wheres in the case of involuntary servitude, one has some freedom still, but is being coerced.
Since this would be a federal law, it would mean coercion by government.
It also furthers the government's unconstitutional communist agenda.
The federal government isn't even supposed to have the authority to do this.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
Amendment X
No where in the constitution that I can find is there anything that gives authority to make a federal law demanding that schools comply with this community service plan.
Another issue is where will the $4,000 for every college student come from?
I read that about 11 million were enrolled in college in 2007.
That is about 44 billion dollars, last fiscal year the DoE spent about 66 billion.
Right now there is about 300 million people living in the United States.
As for Obama's plan for schools: "Expand Service-Learning in Our Nation's Schools: Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year."
"Set a goal" can and most likely does mean set a goal and accomplish it.
It is a rather Orwellian phrase.
The hours of work is besides the point, the point is it violates amendment XIII.
According to Barack Obama's plan it includes house building.
Someone is going to be making a profit by not paying social security, wages, workmens comp etc.
especially since there is millions of high school, middle school, and college students.
How in the world is the government going to keep track of all this, and make sure no abuse of this law takes place?
Government is already having trouble maintaining the law.
I don't see how that relates to compulsory voluntary community service significantly.
Yes the child should be punished for the rude behavior you described.
School is an almost compulsory privilege, if a child doesn't go to school he risks getting in trouble with government.
It sets a precedent of violating amendment XIII.
If government gets away with this they will implement more and more violations of amendment XIII.
Such as Barack Obama's "Civilian National Security Force."
Which basically sounds like it goes hand in hand with Rahm Emanuel's
"Universal Civilian Service" for 18-25 year olds I heard of.
This could easily turn into two or four very large topics in itself actually.
I will do my best to answer that while containing it so it doesn't get too big.
Bill Clinton signed bills that encouraged banks such as Fannie Mae Freddie Mac to loan a lot of money to people who they knew could not pay off the debt.
Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, which gave away USA sovereignty, and caused millions of US jobs to flow out of the country into Mexico.
Barack Obama's plan includes building of affordable housing.
That can be hard.
Lets see, if a school child does all of a sudden decide not to go to school he gets arrested by truancy.
Parents risk getting arrested if they don't send children to school.
Some states are thinking of banning home schooling.
Government is hard on homeschooling.
What if one is already going to school when they implement this mandatory voluntary community service plan?
Yep, I guess it "isn't" force or coercion, one just risks getting arrested, fined, and life ruined.
Also, many won't hire someone who has not been to school.
source for Obama and Biden school, and community service plans quotes.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/se...able-americans
Last edited by dka; 10-11-2008 at 09:50.
"Lets see, if a school child does all of a sudden decide not to go to school he gets arrested by truancy. Yep, I guess it "isn't" force or coercion, one just risks getting arrested, fined, and life ruined.
Also, many won't hire someone who has not been to school.."
So you DO believe schoolwork counts as slavery?
Wow.
I just meant it as a joke was all. Didn't think anyone would be so partisan so as to really argue that Obama the black guy likes slavery because he wants kids to go to school. Wow.
I don't consider school slavery, as long as schools are what they are supposed to be.
Places for learning, not mandatory community service.
What is important is the parents have the choice whether the children do community service or not.
Although government is a bit oppressive, and should give parents more freedom in how they raise their children.
Clarification, when I said school child, I should of said: Lets see, if a parent decides not send his child to school the child could get arrested by truancy. Yep, I guess it "isn't" force or coercion, one just risks getting arrested, fined, and life ruined.
That is how it should of went.
Further clarification, when I said this: "School is an almost compulsory privilege, if a child doesn't go to school he risks getting in trouble with government."
It should of went: School is an almost compulsory privilege, if a parent decides not to send his child to school, both he and the child risk getting in trouble with government.
That is what I really meant.
Last edited by dka; 10-11-2008 at 22:55.
In the case of college however.
Usually the individual is an adult.
Therefore it should be up to said individual whether he goes to college or not.
And college should definitely not have mandatory community service, as I already explained why in an earlier post.
College is supposed to be for learning, not indoctrination, not mandatory community service.
"I don't consider school slavery, as long as schools are what they are supposed to be.
Places for learning, not mandatory community service."
So the definition of slavery has degraded to the very low standard of your opinion of what school is "supposed to be"? What if we disagree on what school is supposed to be, do that make me pro-slavery? What if I think school should be 100% free time for kids. I don't think the government should make any kid ever take another test. If you think the government should make kids do those tests, does that make you pro-slavery?
How about this:
Children don't have the same rights as adults. Parents are allowed to tell their kids almost anything. Parents elected a government. That government tells kids they have to go to school (with the authority give then my their parents) and they tell kids what kind of school work they have to do. Community Service is added to the curriculum. Parents of course remain their right to homeschool which is legal in every state.
This is law 101 friend. The constitution protects the rights of adults, including their right to tell their kids what to do.
This educational thing isn't about taking rights from kids, its about parents exercising their rights (through the last election) to tell their kids what to do.
Absolutely not slavery.
I already mentioned the parents rights of how they raise they're children.
If community service is made mandatory. what about parents who don't want they're children to do mandatory community service?
If federal government makes community service mandatory, it could violate some parents rights.
Government shouldn't be as big as it is right now.
Yes the constitution does protect the parents right to choose how to raise they're children When did I suggest it didn't?
As for my quote: "I don't consider school slavery, as long as schools are what they are supposed to be. Places for learning, not mandatory community service."
I feel you took it out of context. Here is the whole paragraph: "I don't consider school slavery, as long as schools are what they are supposed to be.
Places for learning, not mandatory community service.
What is important is the parents have the
choice whether the children do community service or not.
Although government is a bit oppressive, and should give parents more freedom in how they raise their children."
What I mean is it shouldn't be done on a federal level, government shouldn't dominate schooling as much as it does now.
However, since I did a little editing to improve my post that had that quote.
I might of added that after for clarification . I cannot remember if I did or didn't though. I don't think I did though.
ot: I would make the emphasis text smaller and in italic or something but I have not found out how yet.
Last edited by dka; 10-11-2008 at 23:30.
The Constitution of the United States was designed also to protect not just the rights of the majority, but the minority in freedom of speech, lifestyle, thought, ethnicity, race.
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