Dwarf attackers for waring KD

[waheed]

and in case anyone wonders the reason why i say dwarf suck in top war is cuz in wars u need both suicider/meatshields AND econ provs that can potentially be pumped to unbreakables. the econ provs are like ur backbones and suiciders r like ur muscles. dwarves can be suiciders but they cant be the backbone, thats why in top wars all dwarf will eventually loose.

the dwarf/human or dwarf/gnome can fix this problem MUCH better, and its probably the only way i can think of for dwarves to stand its ground in top wars. but the problem is its not up to YOU to choose which prov to be unbreakable and which to be suicider, ur enemy chooses it. its much better to have a handful of backbone provs at ur disposal and u choose to pump whoever it is that managed to outgrow. but the problem with that is if u choose too few backbone provs, ur enemy will just chain those down early, and if u keep too many u weaken the effects fog have.

in general if your kingdom is skilled enough to think of good setups that includes dwarf, chances are u wouldve thought of other setups that work better

[AFKain]

Humans and gnomes don't really add anything to a dwarf KD. There's not much point in running only 8 A/Ts if that's what you want them to be. They just remove the most annoying dwarf bonus the enemy has to deal with, fog.

Saying that dwarves are horrible for economy and turtling is bs. They have the second best economic bonus and they have the same turtling defense as the two other races who share the best turtling defense elite (not counting DE elites since they aren't very suitable for turtling with).

[waheed]

it doesnt matter if dwarves have +100000% income. they are wide open for kidnaps after the first 2 waves, its impossible for them to recover peasants from massacre/fireball, and dwarves who somehow got pumped "unbreakable" are wide open to NS

the only way to pump a dwarf unbreakable is to build LOTS of watchtowers 20 hours prior to pumping him and hope he dont get discovered, and that is extremely inefficient in a war

[AFKain]

lol :)

[Ishandra]

DW work better in small numbers.

Peoeple who go on about fog needing to be KD wide are deluded. If you have fog and you think people wont hit you, you semi-suicide. If they still wont hit you, you start suiciding. If they hit you after that, your fog worked!

You just make so many hits that they are forced to hit you and if they dont it lets you double or triple everyone equal NW because you can afford to be sending out 10 elites per acre.



KD wide DW/Fog are whats wasted, because no KD will EVER wave your entire KD, they will chain the attackers a couple provs at a time, so that could be 48 hours of half your KDs fog wasted.

[AFKain]

If you have fog and you think people wont hit you, you semi-suicide.

Then the enemy removes the fog and you are dead. Fog isn't permanent. If the enemy is facing only a few Dwarves it is easy to remove fog when needed.

no KD will EVER wave your entire KD they will chain the attackers a couple provs at a time, so that could be 48 hours of half your KDs fog wasted.

First of all, when you get waved prior to war hits will pretty much always be spread over about half your KD. There is no way to remove fog for the aggressive KD so if the KD has full fog they have no choice but hitting into it. Second, KDs with low ability to remove fog will have no choice but hitting into fog much of the time in war. If they can choose to hit an unfoged province they can coordinate the removal of fog and save it for when needed.

[Ishandra]

I'll give you the first pre-war wave, but outside of war the attack times will be relatively high so fog has a slightly lower impact as well.

And when you talk about removing Fog, surely thats easier on KD wide fog because you can look for the lowest WPA targets and chain those down after MV?

and I only said semi-suicide at first, if your unsure they'll be removing fog or hitting you ;) If your running that kind of strat you should be prepared to take the hits so a mini-chain wont be *too* damaging to you.

If its obvious they cant/wont MV you then you can go for the seriously dangerous attacks.

[AFKain]

I'll give you the first pre-war wave, but outside of war the attack times will be relatively high so fog has a slightly lower impact as well.

Wave in aggressive is quicker than the first 12 hours or so of the war, the difference is only 5% once the full effects of war come into play, pretty negligible I'd say.

And when you talk about removing Fog, surely thats easier on KD wide fog because you can look for the lowest WPA targets and chain those down after MV?

Even the smallest WPA will be good after a few hits, it is definitely better not to have to remove fog at all... Besides there's no guarantee that the prov with lower wpa is the one that you would like to chain.

and I only said semi-suicide at first, if your unsure they'll be removing fog or hitting you ;) If your running that kind of strat you should be prepared to take the hits so a mini-chain wont be *too* damaging to you.

If its obvious they cant/wont MV you then you can go for the seriously dangerous attacks.

I would say it is very rare that an enemy KD totally lacks the ability to MV a small number of fogs. If you expose a weakness you will become a target, I don't see why you would only be "mini-chained".

[Ishandra]

Semi-suiciding I would mean to be an attack that leaves you open to 2-4 retals, hence a mini chain. If it leaves you more open than that then its a real suicide.

Its not the number of fogs needed to be removed, its where they are. If your whole KD has fog, yes they will need to MV everyone they wanna hit, but do they need to hit everyone? With a KD full of dwarves, some will be your heavy attackers, having lower WPA. These will also be your best attacking targets as they are more heavily drafted and are going to do more damage to you.


OOW waves can be VERY slow if the island is far away also, even in aggressive.


I just feel running DW KD wide is a waste because at least half that fog wont be utilised and you will always have lower WPA provs that become targets. Having a mixture means that the Dwarves Fog can be utilised to allow stronger/more risky attacking as the enemy has to make a choice about wether its worth the effort to take down that DW.

[AFKain]

Semi-suiciding I would mean to be an attack that leaves you open to 2-4 retals, hence a mini chain.

You can't use that kind of reasoning in war, the only way it might be possible to talk like that is if you're in a position where only a very small group in the other KD can break you, very uncommon IMO.

With a KD full of dwarves, some will be your heavy attackers, having lower WPA.

That is an example of bad strategy. You might as well say that the gnomes that don't run thieves will be very easy to NS. Since fog is such an advantage any good KD will ofc do everything to make sure that their provinces have as good magic protection as they can get. If there are no non dwarves the enemy has to MV on every couple of hits and their targets will have WPAs that keep rising which means they'll have to use more and more of their magic to keep fog off those. There is simply no way that you can argue that you do not need more MVs when warring a full dwarf kd than a kd with a few dwarves in it...

OOW waves can be VERY slow if the island is far away also, even in aggressive.

Give me a break. You know island distance penalty has been removed, right? The only thing remaining from that era is the bonus for hitting on your own island.

[waheed]

island distance penalty is NOT removed... its only removed in war..

a lot of the stuff u said only works on paper and never work in practice... its good that u r creative but unfortunately things dont work like that

[kwwww]

if a dwarf kd is expected to war a gnome kd, then dwarfs will run 15% watch towers before they even wave or declare war.
yes, dwarfs are not good for going after honor chart. non-hybrid can only gain honor from attacks.
however, dwarfs' 7/3 elites and extra BE means they can get high offense. close to orcs if you take into consideration of offense from high-BE training grounds.
When it comes to magic defense in war, dwarfs are no worse than gnomes, humans, or orcs. and if the kd has 5 or 6 a/m, massacre first if you can get a 25 players online at the beginning of war.

[AFKain]

island distance penalty is NOT removed... its only removed in war..

I keep thinking people should be forced to take some kind of a test if they're going to do anything other than asking questions. Tell you what, how about you go check 2 provinces of similar NW on islands 1 and 10 islands away from you and see how much different your attack time is on those, then you can come back and take back what you just said.

a lot of the stuff u said only works on paper and never work in practice... its good that u r creative but unfortunately things dont work like that

A nice and broad statement that, I don't suppose you'd care to go into details? I get the feeling I have a better grip on how things work than you do, but what do I know.

[waheed]

actually u should be the one doing that "test"

and i dont mind going on a little 1 on 1 Q&A session with u but tell me why i should be teaching u anything when u got that "bring it on, amuse me" attitude

[AFKain]

The attitude I have is more of the "annoyed with the guy who makes false statements that he can't possibly back up because if he tested it he'd see how things work" type.

Island distance penalties have been removed for a long time, the only thing remaining from that time is the bonus for hitting on the same island.

And I don't think there's any reason why you'd be teaching me anything, mostly because I don't think you have anything to teach me but also because I'd ask someone who I know is good at the game rather than you.

Edit: Perhaps you are confused by the fact that you get the same reduction in base attack time for the KD you war with as you get for the KDs on your island. You might not have played long enough to know what island distance penalty actually was. I guess if that is how it is your mistake is somewhat excusable.

Though I think that in that case you should try to avoid exposing your ignorance by making statements such as the ones you made here. Could have been useful finding out what island distance penalty was before diving right into this?

Mere speculations on my part of course, feel free to enlighten me!