Israel, it's about time!

[Mystarria]

To be honest with you, what hacks me off the most about the situation is that Israel takes the opportunity of the American Presidential handover to pursue attacks on Gaza, because they are unsure whether Obama will be sympathetic and want to make the most of the remnants of the Bush administration. The worst thing is, Israel will generally only act if they can rely on USA support or at the very least, inactivity, and as half of the Senate and half the money in NYC is from Jew businessmen, and or Israeli sympathisers, it's taking liberties. The family that had 5 daughters killed whilst sleeping from an Israeli bomb, and the restricted aid supplies... I would hardly call that retaliation against a terrorist regime. That's just slaughter. I have no allegiance to either country, but the high-handness of the Israeli attitude, and their reliance on American support, is disgusting. Are we now led to believe that politics cannot bridge the divide and the only resort is violence? If so, what precendent does that set for other less politically attuned nations? If nothing else it has memories of Russia's hugely inappropriate intervention with Georgia, and lays the way for further discord between Palestine and India. Israel's moral being 'Do what you like as the UN is powerless.'

[Uberdog]

It was Churchill that has started this, by placing the Jews on grounds they didnt own, and neglecting owning rights of Palestines

The UN didnt sit back, Israel just ignores the amendements they make

its only because America supports them, they can keep this up

Maybe one day they finally can find a nice island in the Indian Ocean where they cannot make quarrels with their neighbors...

Its an ongoing story, with little to less critic on theirselves, from both sides...

What frightens me the most in this, it that they are all so sure of their rights


on the other hand, both sides are monotheists, so not my ppl :P

[Mystarria]

Im British and I agree setting up Israel was a gaff, but if you want to start reaching into the depths of time, we can fundamentally blame this on Germany for displacing the equivalent of an entire nation of people. How about we not start pointing a finger at historical events and look to the current state of affairs. If I was omnipotent, omnipresent and all that great stuff the big G.O.D is supposedly infused with, I would annhilate religion, remove all borders and force humanity into a nomadic lifestyle where all are too busy concentrating on survival to worry about whose border is whose and whose G.O.D is the right one(s). As I'm not, perhaps we should all make our birthday wishes for peace on earth and goodwill to all men, women, and in the Welsh case... sheep.

[Uberdog]

Germany, or better yet Adolf Hitler didnt want to set up Israel, he had a Madagaskar-plan, prolly the route Churchill should have taken, but he messed up more regions in the world...Balkans...Cyprus

[Mystarria]

I'm sure the ring tailed lemurs would be thrilled with having the Jewish population descend on the idyllic island of Madagascar. Hitler obviously didnt want to set up Israel, he was too busy killing the Jews.

[Nemo]

Im British and I agree setting up Israel was a gaff, but if you want to start reaching into the depths of time, we can fundamentally blame this on Germany for displacing the equivalent of an entire nation of people. How about we not start pointing a finger at historical events and look to the current state of affairs. If I was omnipotent, omnipresent and all that great stuff the big G.O.D is supposedly infused with, I would annhilate religion, remove all borders and force humanity into a nomadic lifestyle where all are too busy concentrating on survival to worry about whose border is whose and whose G.O.D is the right one(s). As I'm not, perhaps we should all make our birthday wishes for peace on earth and goodwill to all men, women, and in the Welsh case... sheep.

You would be right in pointing a finger against the Nazis and Hitler. And they were punished for their crimes. But the Allies were supposed to be the good guys remember? Instead, one of them set about creating conflict zones [Britain], one of them used nukes [twice] on an almost beat foe [USA], and another one decided to give birth to the supercool spy stories and become the communist bogeyman of the West [USSR].

To the last portion of your post: our wishes aren't too different.

And Stoffi, US has tried not to kill civilians in recent wars, I'll give them that. But they f'ck up big sometimes. While we are on the topic, Americans shouldn't have put blind faith in Bush and attacked Iraq. That has cost them. And Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and the CIA detention centres in Eastern Europe puts a limp on their moral high horse.

[1eye]

hamas will never cease fire on israel... the reason they are created is to remove israel from the map. israel must defend itself by removing hamas, i applaud them...here is one to think about, Hamas lives, fights, and dies for Allah! Israel respected that during ramadan, israel left them alone...now, rocket attacks begin again during Hanukkah and will continue through passover, i am sure.. what hard evidence do you have that one religion is better than another, none. it doesn't matter where you are from...however, people exist that is a fact. people have the right to live in peace. israel must defend that right which they have demonstrated toward others, and hamas and iran disrespect.

when your utopia kingdom is getting wasted by suiciders, what do you do? TRAIN OFFENESE!


if you support terrorism or if you are anti-semitic, you will find some moveon talking point garbage to copy & past in here so you can defend the terrorists that fire rockets, and i'm sure there is no point in arguing with you because i am an infidel and i will get banned from the forum like the last time...so ttyn

[Nemo]

I don't think there's anyone here who is supporting terrorism, 1eye. Nobody in their right mind would support terrorism.

Read SnugglySoft's post regarding ceasefire deals if you are talking about respecting religious holidays. If Hanukkah was covered, I'm sure Hamas would have respected it. And while we are on the topic of respecting Religious special days, US hung Saddam Hussein on Eid day, which is equable to christmas. I didn't see Israel condemning that.

Yes, people have a right to live in peace. Israel broke that peace when they took over Palestinian territories and kept expanding. How would you feel if your home was taken over?

And don't compare Utopia with real life. But if you must, think of it this way: you can't do nothing against an Alliance backed super sized province. Maybe if you are a gnome, you can perhaps get in a suicide hit, that's about it. Mehul or OMAC aren't giving out GB protection in real life you know.

I'm not supporting Hamas. But I understand why they're doing what they're doing.

[stoffi]

I'm sure the ring tailed lemurs would be thrilled with having the Jewish population descend on the idyllic island of Madagascar. Hitler obviously didnt want to set up Israel, he was too busy killing the Jews.

Hitler wanted to get RID of the jews, and at first he planned to ship them to Madagascar. Jewish terror organizations like Irgun and Sterns Gang offered their cooperation to Hitler, they offered to fight on the Nazi's side in WWII if they got their own homeland.
But all this proved a great task, and the Nazi's skipped it and went with the "kill them all plan" instead.


The leader of the Holocaust group said a few years ago that Israel must not repeat holocaust against palestinians, like they do now. He had experienced it, and felt Israel was doing what was done with them, placing palestinians in ghettoes and killing them slowly.
Obviously, he was called a nazi and jew-hater by many israeli, as if they were 5 years old all of them.

We must not forget that Israel stole land, they stole land fromthe palestinians, much like Hitler who wanted Lebensraum for the germans. Hamas has every right to fight back and defend their country from the Israeli invaders. Day by day they steal more land, ethnically cleansing Jerusalem just like the serbs did in serbia, and they establish illegal settlements. this must stop! In Serbia, NATO came in bombing them. What will NATO do to Israel? Nothing.

[Mourhelm]

I'll start by saying that it doesn't matter what people say and what facts they quote. People will always believe what they want to believe and find a way to justify their actions.

Great. Then we had an Arab-Israeli conflict. Just supply the Israeli with latest weapons and turn blind eyes to the fact that they have undeclared nukes while picking up hue and cry over the Iranians and North Koreans.

Israel has an army that needs be able to defend Israel against more than just the Palestinians. I don't know where you are from, but as far as I know there is only one country in the world that doesn't have an army (Costa Rica).

There is no general problem with countries having nuclear power and weapons as long as they don't threaten to use it. North Korea and Iran seem crazy enough to use it and that's why you hear whining about it.

When it's tanks and F-16s versus handguns, can you blame Palestinians for the only option left to them: suicide bombing?

As far as I know, The Irish never used suicide bombings when they fought for their independence. They also aimed at military targets and not civilian ones.

Suicide bombings are used only by societies that value death more than life. That is one of the major differences between western cultures and extreme eastern cultures.

I have nothing against Jewish people. Frankly, I'm horrified at what they've had to go through, but I cannot, in all honesty, support the state of Israel, it's government or it's actions. I go to England, start a business, buy off half a county and then declare it as an independent state, think the UN and the rest of the world will go along with me? More importantly, will America give me M-1s?

Before WW2 and after WW2 there weren't any countries (except maybe one) that wanted to take Jewish people. The world was split between the winning countries and the Brits decided to help the Jewish people by agreeing to give them a part of Palestine. Mistake or not, the UN accepted this and split Palestine. It is true that Jewish people lived in Palestine at the time, but they hardly bought half the country. They also didn't declare independence before they got the OK from the UN.

Once Israel declared its independence the Arab nations started a war which they lost. Losing the war caused the problem of Palestinian refugees. Note that the Arab nations doesn't want to take these refugees into their countries just like countries didn't want to take Jewish refugees after WW2 (one prof is that when Israel signed it's peace treaty with Egypt, Egypt didn't want to take back the Gaza strip that was originally theirs).

There is a long ongoing debate in Israel whether we should return any or all that we took in the wars with the Arab nations, but there is really no discussion about giving back parts of what the UN granted us.

I don't care at all about biblical stories and that "god" promised us this land. There are some extremist here that thing that it should all be ours. They are the ones that illegally build up settlements in Palestinian territories.

Like in any other country, we have extremist groups. They are a minority (and as prof you can see we used our army to take them out of the Gaza strip).

I am sure that the Palestinians want peace too, but their extremist control them (We also find it hard to deal with our own extremist).

Notice the different methods USA and Israel have when they fight "terrorism". USA tries above all to avoid civilian casualties. They do their best, and they don't bomb everything and everyone.
Israel on the other hand, couldn't care less. Palestinians are less worth, and the Jewish race is God-sent.... They don't care if there are lots of civilians if they have a chance to kill someone.
Israel and USA are fighting two similar wars, but Israel has no regard for non-jewish human life.

If what you say is true, Israel would not have the support of the US. Despite the fact that international law says that if you hide your military in civilian population you are responsibility for the civilian casualties Israel doesn't bomb everything and everyone.

If Israel would bomb everything and everyone we would have a solution for the Gaza problem real fast. Gaza is a small enough area to just bomb it all with artillery and air strikes and remove it completely from the map in six hours. Extremist here probably support such action, but the majority and I wouldn't to add one more holocaust to the world.

When it comes to taking the risk of a few civilians getting killed on the Palestinian side or our side, we prefer our side lives. I'm sure your country will make the same decision. I am also sure that the USA killed civilians on its various wars.

---

To all those who call the Palestinians freedom fighters. If they were targeting military targets I would agree. Once they target civilian targets they are terrorists.

If it was up to me, I would give the Palestinians all that is theirs according to the UN split plan (to avoid conflict about Jerusalem I would make it a UN controlled international city with its own laws). However, the Palestinians want everything, including what the UN agreed to give Israel. Israel will never agree to give it because it will mean the end of it.

Also, the extremist from both side have too much control on the situation. On our side it means more settlements. On their side it means attacking civilian targets and not military ones.

As long as these extremist on both sides control the situation, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will never be resolved.

http://sderot.aish.com/SderotPetitions/15Seconds.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys (old, but always relevant)

[Nemo]

Israel has an army that needs be able to defend Israel against more than just the Palestinians. I don't know where you are from, but as far as I know there is only one country in the world that doesn't have an army (Costa Rica).

Of course Israel has an army. And it is equipped with the finest weapons by the US and other sympathizers. That's my point. The Palestinians are outgunned. Why does Israel merit state of the art weapons and Palestine doesn't? Doesn't Palestine have a right to defend itself? And what are the armies of free countries defending themselves from? Oh, I know. From people taking over their land, which is exactly what Israel has done. Taken over Palestinian territory.

There is no general problem with countries having nuclear power and weapons as long as they don't threaten to use it. North Korea and Iran seem crazy enough to use it and that's why you hear whining about it.

USA used nukes. They were fully aware of the consequences, yet they went through with it. They hit two cities in three days. They have no right to be the nuclear conscience of the free world. Specially since they are displaying double standards. And if Israel was so honest, it would at least admit that it has nukes.

Iran has made it clear that they want to use nuclear technology for civilian purposes. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is an idiot, who doesn't know which is his head and which is his behind, and you shouldn't really pay attention to him. The Islamic leaders have said that they will not produce, stockpile or use nukes.

Besides, even if they do get it eventually, it'll probably be used to gain strategic advantage that only Israel has right now. Face it, Israel doesn't want Iran to have the nukes, not because they'll use it, but because Israel will lose it's nuclear monopoly and won't be able to strut around like they are the Lords of the Middle East.

As far as I know, The Irish never used suicide bombings when they fought for their independence. They also aimed at military targets and not civilian ones.

Of course, Israel has always stuck to military targets. Even when they conducted genocide in refugee camps. They even shelled the peacekeepers camp in Lebanon which was full of civilians. Remember that? Guess not.

Btw, the Irish killed civilians as well. No suicide bombings, of course. But there were bombings. And it's not only extremely eastern countries that employ suiciding. And it isn't a extreme eastern tactic. It was just as common in the West as the East, though the Japanese were the first to use it in a large scale.

Before WW2 and after WW2 there weren't any countries (except maybe one) that wanted to take Jewish people. The world was split between the winning countries and the Brits decided to help the Jewish people by agreeing to give them a part of Palestine. Mistake or not, the UN accepted this and split Palestine. It is true that Jewish people lived in Palestine at the time, but they hardly bought half the country. They also didn't declare independence before they got the OK from the UN.

Who the hell gave UN the right to give Israel a part of Palestine? And why should the Palestinians allow it anyway? Think the Americans would've been thrilled if Texas had been handed over? It would've been a much better solution, no? After all, Americans love Israel, right?

[QUOTE]If Israel would bomb everything and everyone we would have a solution for the Gaza problem real fast. Gaza is a small enough area to just bomb it all with artillery and air strikes and remove it completely from the map in six hours.[QUOTE]

If they could get away with it, they would.

To all those who call the Palestinians freedom fighters. If they were targeting military targets I would agree. Once they target civilian targets they are terrorists.

If it was up to me, I would give the Palestinians all that is theirs according to the UN split plan (to avoid conflict about Jerusalem I would make it a UN controlled international city with its own laws). However, the Palestinians want everything, including what the UN agreed to give Israel. Israel will never agree to give it because it will mean the end of it.

Also, the extremist from both side have too much control on the situation. On our side it means more settlements. On their side it means attacking civilian targets and not military ones.

As long as these extremist on both sides control the situation, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will never be resolved.

The fact that they target civilians is the reason I do not support Hamas. But Israel also targets civilians, so I don't support them either. I've already told you that I don't support terrorism.

Yes, as long as there are extremists, the conflict will continue. One side is defending something that is illegal, and the other side is taking all the wrong paths to administer justice. This does not mean there aren't good guys on both sides. And it is a ridiculous waste of human life.

Like I said, the fault lies with the Brits and the Allied powers.

PS There are plenty of links for the palestinian cause too, I'm sure.

[1eye]

Nemo thinks it is OK for hamas to fire rockets at civilians if there is not cease fire?!?!!

this is not utopia game buddy...these are real people. there does not need to e a aigned agreement in order for hamas to know that rockets are bad.
when the cease fire ended, isreal did not jump at the chance to invade gaza...they had to

i have to go talk to intelligent people, bye

[Mourhelm]

Of course Israel has an army. And it is equipped with the finest weapons by the US and other sympathizers. That's my point. The Palestinians are outgunned.

You don't make much sense. Are you saying that if someone comes to stab you with a knife and the police officer next to you only has a gun he should do nothing because the stabber is out gunned?

Israeli citizens are being stabbed with a knife by the Hamas, so the Israeli army responds with its gun.

Why does Israel merit state of the art weapons and Palestine doesn't? Doesn't Palestine have a right to defend itself?

The Palestinians has every right to defend themselves!

Sadly they choose to do so by attacking civilian targets instead of military ones.

FYI, Israel removed all the Jewish Israeli citizens out of the Gaza strip a while ago. At the moment, if there are any Israeli citizens there, they are soldiers or reporters.

And what are the armies of free countries defending themselves from? Oh, I know. From people taking over their land, which is exactly what Israel has done. Taken over Palestinian territory.

If you think that what the UN gave to the Jewish is Palestinian territory, then we will never agree and we can close the discussion now.

But for argument's sake, even if it is Palestinian territory and Israel has no right to exist. Why attack civilian targets and not military ones? Our army is what causes the damage, not our children.

Also, armies of free countries defend against other nations hurting them, not only the ones taking their lands.

If your country was being bombarded with rockets on civilian targets, will you keep your army home because no one is taking your land?

USA used nukes. They were fully aware of the consequences, yet they went through with it. They hit two cities in three days. They have no right to be the nuclear conscience of the free world. Specially since they are displaying double standards. And if Israel was so honest, it would at least admit that it has nukes.

National security and honesty has nothing to do with each other. I don't know for certainty that we have nukes (although I do believe that).

The fact that the world doesn't breath down our neck because of the nukes is that we don't threaten anyone with it.

Iran has made it clear that they want to use nuclear technology for civilian purposes. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is an idiot, who doesn't know which is his head and which is his behind, and you shouldn't really pay attention to him. The Islamic leaders have said that they will not produce, stockpile or use nukes.

The reason that the world is afraid of Iran and other Arab countries that want to get nukes is because of world terrorism.

As I said before, Islamic extremist value death more than life. If they are suicide bombing they might as well use nukes.

That craziness is what makes people take Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seriously.

Besides, even if they do get it eventually, it'll probably be used to gain strategic advantage that only Israel has right now. Face it, Israel doesn't want Iran to have the nukes, not because they'll use it, but because Israel will lose it's nuclear monopoly and won't be able to strut around like they are the Lords of the Middle East.

1. Our army is superior enough that we don't need our nukes to make our enemies think twice before they try anything.
2. We are hardly the lords of the middle east.

Of course, Israel has always stuck to military targets. Even when they conducted genocide in refugee camps. They even shelled the peacekeepers camp in Lebanon which was full of civilians. Remember that? Guess not.

I do remember that. Even good weapons miss sometimes, and even good intelligence is wrong sometimes.

Save your breath of saying it wasn't accidental. As I said in my previous post, everyone will believe what they want anyways.

Also, I wasn't there to see the intelligence and the aiming to tell you in 100% confidence that it was a mistake.

IIRC, Israel stopped the operation because of that incident.

Btw, the Irish killed civilians as well. No suicide bombings, of course. But there were bombings. And it's not only extremely eastern countries that employ suiciding. And it isn't a extreme eastern tactic. It was just as common in the West as the East, though the Japanese were the first to use it in a large scale.

I would love to get examples of western countries who used suicide bombings or any other form of suicide attacks.

About the Irish. Even if they did kill civilians sometimes, it wasn't their main target.

Who the hell gave UN the right to give Israel a part of Palestine? And why should the Palestinians allow it anyway?

First good point you make. The UN is a crappy organization that could have done a better job. Most of the world suffer because of the UN's incompetent.

As I see it, the UN got the right to do things in the world from the viewpoint that the world should be democratic and bla bla bla... They had a vote and decided to accept the split.

Think the Americans would've been thrilled if Texas had been handed over? It would've been a much better solution, no? After all, Americans love Israel, right?

As in anyplace in the world, you have all sort of opinions.

In Israel, some call to make more settlements and some say to destroy the settlements. Democracy is a *****...

In the USA you've got Nazis and KKK.

Anywhere in the world some people like (or doesn't care) about the Jewish in their country or about Israel. Some people hate the Jewish and/or Israel.

Making generalizations is stupid. I'm sure not all Palestinians are for the bombarding of Israel with suicide bombers and rocket, just like not all Israelis support the building of settlements or the current military action.

Mourhelm: "If Israel would bomb everything and everyone we would have a solution for the Gaza problem real fast. Gaza is a small enough area to just bomb it all with artillery and air strikes and remove it completely from the map in six hours."

If they could get away with it, they would.

While SOME would, most wouldn't. You are making generalizations again. It's wrong and you know it, but it makes it easier for you to hate Israel.

The fact that they target civilians is the reason I do not support Hamas. But Israel also targets civilians, so I don't support them either. I've already told you that I don't support terrorism.

We don't target civilians and our army doesn't hide within civilian population.

If Hamas would take their civilians away from the fighting, you will see very few civilian casualties on their side (no one can guarantee 0 civilian casualties).

Yes, as long as there are extremists, the conflict will continue. One side is defending something that is illegal, and the other side is taking all the wrong paths to administer justice. This does not mean there aren't good guys on both sides. And it is a ridiculous waste of human life.

I agree with you that there are good guys on both sides and that it is ridiculous to waste human life. Explain that to the suicide bombers.

Like I said, the fault lies with the Brits and the Allied powers.

OK, we agree it's their fault. What can we do about it?

PS There are plenty of links for the palestinian cause too, I'm sure.

I'm sure you are right. But at least Israel takes actions against people who are being overly cruel and Israel doesn't manipulate the world media.

[stoffi]

Nemo, the palestinians want -67 borders. Hamas offered it many times, but Israel refused. And Israel will NEVER give up Jerusalem, they want it all.

And the reason why USA supports Israel, is because american presidents are bribed by jews in usa. Well, americans don't call it bribe, but in norway, paying the president for services like that, is a bribe. Corruption.

Also, did you know that the ISRAELI JEW that Obama has as chief of staff is suspected to be Mossad's leader in North America? And why on earth are Israelis that high up in the government? He doesn't want what's best for usa, he wants what's best for Israel.

[SnuggleySoft]

In America, people were *****ing about him NOT having enough support for Israel. Obama haters get to have their cake and eat it too.

And what's wrong with Israeli's in Gov't? Should we be scared of California becoming an Austrian territory? That seems more likely seeing as Arnie actually has a Constitutional role in Gov't.