It is a potential conflict of interest, especially if he is Mossad.Originally Posted by SnuggleySoft
Check the following articles and video on spies caught spying on the USA, committing passport fraud in New Zealand, spying in Switzerland, .
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051303.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fm0_...eature=related
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15222134/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/16/israel
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ce-707656.html
I have already said - I think this is the third time I'm saying it - that I do not support what Hamas is doing or how they're going about things. And yes, I was referring to targeting civilians.
If you think that what the UN gave to the Jewish is Palestinian territory, then we will never agree and we can close the discussion now.And yet you will continue to stand by the UNs decision? I don't care who voted for who and who didn't, but I would never let some people just come in and take my home.First good point you make. The UN is a crappy organization that could have done a better job. Most of the world suffer because of the UN's incompetent.
But I guess we've found a fundamental point upon which we disagree, so we'll leave the discussion at that. And we can fight on and on about the other points forever. And we'll probably get increasingly passionate and pick fights over little its and bits from each others post [Israel doesn't manipulate the world media?], quarrel about how points were taken out of context and say things we don't want to say, like "But Israel brought the civilians into the conflict zone in the first place. So Hamas is bombing people who are on their land." Of course, that doesn't justify anything. I think it's best to leave the argument as is. Looks to me like it's gonna stay that way for a long time.
I make a point of staying out of Communism-Capitalism, Israel-Palestine type discussion. Frankly, those are debates without ends. But allonons post really bugged me.
Anyway, speaking as a person who lives in a country far removed from this conflict, I wish you all the best Mournhelm. I hope you and your family will be safe, and that this mess clears up soon, for both sides sake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack
Wiki is not always accurate, but most times it is.
PSYou can ask US for Texas or the Brits for Wales. :)OK, we agree it's their fault. What can we do about it?
Last edited by Nemo; 02-01-2009 at 08:03.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
The mistake was made. Switching the problem from Palestinian refugees to Israeli ones won't do the world any good.
I doubt we'll get Texas or Wales. Maybe if you'll be willing to give me your home it'll solve the problem. According to what you said, I doubt that you'll just give it. (btw, Israel is only 21000 square kilometers in size, so we wont need all of Texas).
Another solution with the current situation at hand should be found.
You are right and I agree to leave the argument as is.
Thanks. I hope this conflict will end soon too.
It's too long for me to search for an example of a western country using a suicide bombing tactics (Skimming through the article I didn't find any examples).
No go dude. My country already has a population problem.
Look under the history heading, background. That part is small. Skip the part about the Japanese, and the reading material is pretty short.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
From what I see, its all from muslim countries and in socially non-individualist societies, (mostly asian.) Plus some crazies like the shoe-bomb guy that made traveling by air even more of a nuisance. I don't think psychopaths should count though...
"Modern suicide bombing as a political tool can be traced back to the assassination of Czar Alexander II of Russia in 1881. Alexander fell victim to a Nihilist plot. While driving on one of the central streets of Saint Petersburg, near the Winter Palace, he was mortally wounded by the explosion of hand-made grenades and died a few hours afterwards. The Tzar was killed by the Pole Ignacy Hryniewiecki, who died while intentionally exploding the bomb during the attack."
That's suicide bombing for you. The guy who did it was Polish.
"During the Battle for Berlin the Luftwaffe flew "Self-sacrifice missions" (Selbstopfereinsatz) against Soviet bridges over the River Oder. These 'total missions' were flown by pilots of the Leonidas Squadron under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Heiner Lange. From 17 April until 20 April 1945, using any aircraft that were available, the Luftwaffe claimed that the squadron destroyed 17 bridges, however the military historian Antony Beevor when writing about the incident thinks that this was exaggerated and that only the railway bridge at Küstrin was definitely destroyed. He comments that "thirty-five pilots and aircraft was a high price to pay for such a limited and temporary success". The missions were called off when the Soviet ground forces reached the vicinity of the squadron's airbase at Jüterbog."
That's for a group.
I did say the Japanese were the first to use it in a large scale. And they have their own reasons for ritual suicides.
And most people are unhinged when they commit suicide.
What about Euthanasia? Are you for or against it?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Last time I checked Russia wasn't a western, and neither was Poland (at 1881). But even if we do say they are western, an individual suicide bombing doesn't reflect on the culture he's coming from.
I've seen Iranians and Palestinians (and they are probably not the only ones) call for the continuation of suicide bombings by the Palestinians. That means they value death more than they do life.
This is a good example of a suicide attack, not of suicide bombing.
Also notice that their targets were bridges and railways and not cities and civilians.
Euthanasia is off topic. I'll gladly talk to you about the subject on another thread.
As for what those statements mean I'd be inclined to believe that many people might see the suicide bombings as sacrifices that will bring an end to Israeli oppression and prevent future deaths. I don't see how you can draw the conclusion you do and I don't see what relevance it would have even if it were true that some individuals value death more than life. I think it was you who warned people of making generalizations about a whole people based on the actions of individuals...I've seen Iranians and Palestinians (and they are probably not the only ones) call for the continuation of suicide bombings by the Palestinians. That means they value death more than they do life.
Suicide bombings are used only by societies that value death more than life. That is one of the major differences between western cultures and extreme eastern cultures.I don't really see the difference. Either way, you're killing yourself. You believe your death can achieve something greater than you being alive.This is a good example of a suicide attack, not of suicide bombing.
My point was whether it has been done in Western culture or not. The target was not part of the argument. If I suicide bomb a military installation then I suddenly value life more than death?
And besides, I think AFKain is right. It doesn't really matter.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
I'm not talking about the entire Palestinian population, only about Hamas and other extremist. I never said that all Palestinians value death more than life - when I said "they value death more than they do life" I was referring to the Iranians and Palestinians that call for the continuation of suicide bombings.
I am well aware that not all Palestinians support the suicide bombings or the targeting of Israeli civilian targets. That's what makes negotiations possible.
So far my only two conclusions are that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will never end (if it will it'll be in a long long time from now) and that the current Palestinian leadership (in Gaza) values death more than life. Hamas prefers Israeli deaths to Palestinians lives. I also Believe Hamas thinks terrorism is the best course of action.
Firstly, I asked for an example of suicide bombing, not suicide attacks.
Secondly, the target has everything to do with it. If you attack the military you might save the lives of your fellow countrymen. The motivation for the sacrifice you make is to help save other lives.
Bombing a military installation makes much more sense and is much more acceptable.
I agree it doesn't guarantee you value life more than death. But if you have no option other than suicide, and you present your motivation for the suicide bombing is to save lives, I'll believe you value life more than death. Of course you also need to stop hiding within civilian population and use them as human shields.
I think it does matter because it is much harder to negotiate peace with someone that only cares about your death and doesn't care about its people's lives.
Peace is not only about land, it's also about safety.
Last edited by Mourhelm; 03-01-2009 at 13:58.
Nihilists aren't really indicative of what is acceptable of a culture, since they are the epitome of counter-culture. Plus, it was a one time occurrence. Plus, Eastern Eurasia is not the west. They are the second world. They are non individualist eastern societies, (hence, Communism.)
The VAST majority of suicide bombings is done by muslim nations. Even if we include individual exceptions. Can we agree on that at least?
They think its a quick way to go to heaven, even though no mention of the virgins given afterward are claimed in the Quran.
When you have ignorance and poverty on that level, muslims are going to cling to their bombs and their religion, (ha ha....).
If I were an impoverished idiot I would want to go to some perfect afterlife as fast as I could. Especially when its saturated in muslim media starting from childhood.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55582
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40967
I still dont understand why the palestinians do not take back 75% of thier land that is now Jordan?
I can understand the claim to a shared Jerusalem on religious beliefs,but in fact the palestinian jews were there from the start too,so my solution would be for the PLO and Israeli's to sign a pact of war against Jordan to take thier annexed land back from Jordan.That would be 75% of the original Palestinian land given back to Palestinian Arabs.
Israel can sign over thier share of the recaptured land to the new state of Palistine and the PLO can give the entire west bank and Gaza to Israeil ,with a international right for all countries and religions to share the city of Jerusalem ie:a middle east Vatican City shared by Muslims and Jews and Christians for ever ans always!
BOOYAH!
1) Egyptian officials have made a point of repeatedly telling the arab world that it was Hamas who were to blame for breaking the ceasefire, and that israeli action is justified
2) Hamas took over Gaza in a military coup, killing a great many of their own people and made tentative peace into war.
3) Hamas is an islamic extremist group officially recognized as a terrorist organization
4) Hamas deliberately targets civilians and makes no show of hiding this. On its 'manifesto' is an item declaring their intention of throwing all israelis into the sea and never recognizing israel as a nation.
5) Hamas has been using almost all of its funding to smuggle weapons into the gaza strip, rather than attempting to lift palestinians from their state of abject poverty and general illiteracy.
But then what else can you expect from an extremist islamic terrorist organization when it violently assumes control.
6) Hamas is recorded and known to use palestinian children as meat-shields, launch rockets from residential areas, store munitions in mosques, hijack and use hospitals for transport and basically violate any rule of engagement and basic common sense, if common sense calls for the protection of your people.
Personally I think it's self evident that Israel was/is going for a peaceful solution of 2 states for 2 peoples. It gave its land to the palestinians and told them they can live there while palestinians were slaughtered by the tens of thousands by their muslim cousins and driven away from jordan, etc (which is originally where the great majority of 'palestinians' were situated).
The problem is that when you got a mass of uneducated unwashed people in abject poverty, any idiot who wants to assume power for the sake of power knows that the best way to do so is to point a finger and say "its all THEIR fault".
Someone responsible and moderate would have built schools, universities, factories and parks rather than import thousands and thousands of rockets and fire them from residential areas at residential areas.
This of course they need to do in order for the "it's all THEIR fault" ruse to work, since they can't afford to appear malleable.
And so a great many people die for a terrorist group to stay in power, though they have no intention of using that power for the benefit of their people, as is clearly evident.
Last edited by Lightzy; 03-01-2009 at 19:36.
Perhaps there is still hope ,at least the children still know the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wYHV...eature=related
BOOYAH!
The attack on the Tsar was a suicide bombing.
I was merely dictating the terms of the argument. You wanted examples, I provided.Secondly, the target has everything to do with it. If you attack the military you might save the lives of your fellow countrymen. The motivation for the sacrifice you make is to help save other lives.
Bombing a military installation makes much more sense and is much more acceptable.
In their eyes, this is a war. Their only means of protection, since they don't have patriot missiles to save them from the F-16s, is to hide inside the civilian population. It's guerilla warfare. They fight, the people protect them. To the palestinians, they are freedom fighters.I agree it doesn't guarantee you value life more than death. But if you have no option other than suicide, and you present your motivation for the suicide bombing is to save lives, I'll believe you value life more than death. Of course you also need to stop hiding within civilian population and use them as human shields.
I thought you were referring to the actual suicide bombers. Not the leaders.I think it does matter because it is much harder to negotiate peace with someone that only cares about your death and doesn't care about its people's lives.
Snugglesoft and the rest:
Yes, we can.The VAST majority of suicide bombings is done by muslim nations. Even if we include individual exceptions. Can we agree on that at least?
That, I'm afraid, is the effect of the brainwashing they receive. They don't know any better, cause they haven't been taught any better.They think its a quick way to go to heaven, even though no mention of the virgins given afterward are claimed in the Quran.
When you have ignorance and poverty on that level, muslims are going to cling to their bombs and their religion, (ha ha....).
If I were an impoverished idiot I would want to go to some perfect afterlife as fast as I could.
See, this is like the dark ages for Islam. There's very little education. Very little knowledge about what their religion really is. In the middle ages, it consisted of civilized countries that valued education, knowledge, science and arts. Of course, in every religion there are extremists. And they would've never had this much power had it not been for the West's foolishness. Even liberal Muslims are starting to doubt the West's sincerity now. Why? Because the West has given the extremists a cause.
See, they think this is all a conspiracy by the Christian and Jewish worlds, who don't want the Muslims to prosper as they once had. Before the British took over India, the divide between Muslims and Hindus wasn't as glaring. Blinded by their Imperialist hatred, the Brits divided the Indian subcontinent. They created Israel. They created conflict zones, where a normal childhood, normal education was not possible. They created a breeding ground for terrorists. Then they supported Israel with whatever they got. The extremists rejoiced.
When the impoverished kids, living in the middle of a war zone, grew up watching people starve and die everyday, what did they hear? "Oh, this is a tactic to keep us under their feet. Their fancy speeches are lies [bigshot political leaders in the middle eastern neighbourhood routinely turning up dead, didn't help Mossad and CIAs popularity, even if in certain cases, evidence pointed elsewhere]. They want to take revenge for losing the crusade." When George Bush, the idiot of the century, actually mentioned the word crusade, all hell broke loose in the Muslim conscious. Every action you have taken, every step you think you've moved forward, you've taken things from bad to worse. Every bomb dropped in Gaza, every missile attack into Pakistan, feeds those flames. You gave the extremists the background, the cause and the direction to point fingers. And things are all f'cked up now.
If things had not headed this way, we might have had more peaceful, liberal muslim countries, like Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey, Morocco, Bangladesh. But that future is screwed. I don't know how this mess can be solved. But bombing Gaza sure as hell ain't helping.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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