Summary of Changes I would like to see

[Ishandra]

Food Changes

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1. Cost 1bushel per thievery operation, per 100 thieves sent.

2. Cost 1bushel per attack, per 100 troops sent (not merc/horse/prisoner).

3. Add Thievery or Magic Op, poison food. Peasants/troops killed in the ratio of 1% of food consumed every hour, until the amount of food poisoned has been consumed. Amounts such as 10% of current food.

This works against people stockpiling massive food, as they will be hurt for longer, while having little effect on people who consume most of their stock and renew it each hour. Can be used several times.

4. Draft rates increase food consumption by their percent. Reservist 0.5% more food used, normal 1% food used etc under old system.

Increase food demand, limiting stockpiling pre-war when players draft more.

5. Allow food to be sent to satiate a dragon, 1500 bushels to kill 1 point on the dragon.



Dungeons Changes

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At the minute Dungeons are Obsolete beyond 2-3% basically.

I propose while keeping the current numbers for prisoners and capacity, we add some more bonuses. Below are examples, not all would be needed in 1 building.

1. Increase Enemy Casualties

Depending on theme, this could come in 1 of 2 ways.
a) +1 casualty for every 2 prisoners sent - Prisoners become bloodthirsty from sport fighting/gladiatorism.
b) Increase enemy casualties 1% Multiplier.
10% Dungeons would give 18% more casualties at 100 BE.

a) Would make Dungeons good for anyone hitting a lot.
b) Would make Dungeons especially good for higher BE provinces, which dungeons would help with.

2. Allow better intelligence gathering through torture.

Raise accuracy of SoM, SoS, Survey, Infil by 1% Multiplier. 10% Dungeons would give 18% more accurate numbers.

While this isnt a massive bonus, it does make Dungeons a tiny bit more appealing it if goes in alongside other bonuses.

Apply the same bonus as a flat rate chance to find the culprit of Thievery options which has thieves lost, including those from successful oversends.

3. Allow Prisoners to be captured when enemy troops die while attacking the province.

Would make higher dungeons easier to fill for those running them for the other benefits above.



Artisan Changes

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1. 50% Protection of Peasants and Military from MS and FB.

2. Free Raze at all times.

3. Doubles buildings destroyed on Raze and Massacre in War.

4. Enemy recieves no Building Credits with land taken from an Artisan.

5. All other bonuses remain the same.

Orc Changes

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1. Science capped at Limited, normal cost. Learns yield double books.

2. Plague spread to enemies succeeding in thievery operations on the Orc at a rate of 5%.

3. Plague spreads 100% when someone hits Orc, 100% when Orc hits someone else.

4. Plague changed to No pop growth throughout duration, 2% Defence Penalty 2% Income Penalty. Increase by 2% every hour before capping at 16% after 7 hours, then reduces by 2% Each hour until negated after 14 hours. Can be cured at any time through current means.

5. Fog Immunity, Pitfalls Immunity, Nightmare Immunity.

6. All other bonuses/penalties remain the same. 30% Gains bonus multiplies with the learn bonus.





Warrior Changes

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-15% Attack times
+25% Enemy Casualties, including Ambushes both ways
+25% Buildings Destroyed with Raze/Massacre

War Hero Changes

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-50% Wages
-50% Draft Cost
+Enhanced Conquest, with +25% Gains
+25% More Specialist Credits, but not Building Credits


Drafting Changes

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0.1% Cautious - 20gc
0.3% Reservist - 30gc
0.5% Normal - 50gc
1.0% Militant - 80gc
1.5% Aggressive - 120gc
2.0% Conscriptive - 170gc

While higher Draft rate increases food consumption, also offer protection from NS, NM and MS equal to draft rate x 10.

Cautious, while economical leaves Soldiers open to ops. Conscriptive, while expensive maintains many more of your hardened Soldiers. A citizens of a military orientated Province expect to fight at any time and are hardened by the resolve of their leaders, who urge them to fight.

This system makes the higher draft levels more useful in war, as with an 8.5x increase in cost, you get 20 times more protection of soldiers.




Overall these changes leave the majority of races unharmed, although playing them this age will be a different experience due to food and drafting changes as well as attacker personalities.

Orcs will be significantly improved, with WH opening up good economic possibilities and learns yielding excellent gains allowing them to keep up mid-late age when Sciences take off. They will not be stuck with Warrior, although it will lend itself to being a strong destructive force to any Race.

Orcs will gain some defensive psychological measures, I.E. Plague which will help them to counter the plethora of ops and hits they recieve without making them any harder to actually take down, beyond the protection of the Draft changes, which they can afford to use with their 50% Draft and Possibly WH benefits.


I know I havent covered a lot of other things people would like to see, but I dont think we should change everything in 1 age. The addition of new ops, spells, mana-rasp, races, etc should be tested on the next Age of Genesis to go into WoL after modification for balancing, next age.

Flame on ;)

[mrsyer]

no flaming here, very thorough, dynamic, and would make the new age very appealing based on these changes

[Crisco]

Food and Dungeon not gonna touch upon.

Artisan has a far too many bonuses.

Orc has too many bonuses. Other than, perhaps, fog, you shouldn't give immunity to things. Orcs already have +30% gains for learns. What would happen with yours is give 260% gains (or about 26% of an enemy's science per learn). Plague that hits 100% chance is too powerful with the mechanics of the plague you introduced. Every attack dealth/received would require you to remove it, and if you don't you are permanently neutered.

WAY too overpowered

[Ishandra]

Learns are only any use later into the age, by which time the Orc is massively behind. If the Orc manages to Learn enough to keep up, he is always open to being Learned back, or by other Orcs.

If you cure plague within the first few hours, I.E after the orc has double tapped or whatever, you only ever suffered 2-6% Reduction in defence/income compared to the current 15%.

Immunities are to protect Orcs defence from NM and Def/Off from PF. Orc's major econ penalty seems to be losing its elites to ambushes, PF Immunity would alleviate this a little. Elves and DW are currently 2 of the stronger picks, along with DE being the most popular. Giving Orc these immunities makes it more popular, without adding to its already powerful destructive abilities.

Artisan bonuses are many but none are massively significant.

[Crisco]

26% of the enemy's science as learns. Meaning, you do 4 learns and you will have gained an entire age's (up to that point) worth of science.

It isn't about IF you cure, it is the difficulty OF curing it once you contract it.

Everyone loses their elites. I'd rather see them with warspoils then immunity to try and dampen their racial flaws (which all races have)


1. 50% Protection of Peasants and Military from MS and FB. <- Half damage on MS is incredibly good
2. Free Raze at all times. <- perhaps not too powerful, but extremely powerful for dwarf
3. Doubles buildings destroyed on Raze and Massacre in War. <-20% of buildings destroyed per attack is incredible
4. Enemy recieves no Building Credits with land taken from an Artisan. <- Full artisan kingdom can wreck havok on an enemy's economy because they can't build.
5. All other bonuses remain the same. <- AND other bonuses.

seriously overpowered.

[Ishandra]

Full KD of Artisans means no Rogue ops, no MS. No strong hybrids, no immunity to drought/storms/massacres. If Arti is running high homes/banks/towers/stables as most do, thats also low rax/hosp/TG/TD, which doesnt lend itself to a strong warring KD if used on every province.

Taking 26% of Science would rely on a perfect NW match, no schools, no Sage. You would need to hit 4 people, with no learn retals, to match them. By this time, (48 hours OOW) other people will have gained science so you will need to do it again soon. While this is powerful, you need to do it every few days to keep up and you are just as open to Learns as others and must have your army out, leaving you open to other hits, as well as missing out on plunders.

[Crisco]

No one is going to learn retal an orc who has no science to begin with. Science is remarkably slow. You can do 4 learns once every 2 weeks and keep up more than enough.

If an enemy had 1million books, you would take 250k. 250k is a LOT.

I can be a hybrid without designating a particular personality. Race/Artisan A/T or even A/M is easily viable. Immunity to droughts/storms is as simple as NB. Most people won't mv just to get storms up. Stables and TG do the same thing, having less of one won't affect your offense much if you get more of the other. Blocking out an entire kingdom from getting ANY building credits (let's say 22 Artisans and 3 mystics) is a devastating econ tactic.

If you don't see the obvious issues, I think you have a problem :/

[poei]

You obviously seem to be playing a different game.

While I'm not saying you have not thought this through, the ideas are too plain radical to be considered.

Some of the ideas about artisan and dungeons seem to be interesting though

[Ishandra]

No one is going to learn retal an orc who has no science to begin with. Science is remarkably slow. You can do 4 learns once every 2 weeks and keep up more than enough.

If an enemy had 1million books, you would take 250k. 250k is a LOT.

I can be a hybrid without designating a particular personality. Race/Artisan A/T or even A/M is easily viable. Immunity to droughts/storms is as simple as NB. Most people won't mv just to get storms up. Stables and TG do the same thing, having less of one won't affect your offense much if you get more of the other. Blocking out an entire kingdom from getting ANY building credits (let's say 22 Artisans and 3 mystics) is a devastating econ tactic.

If you don't see the obvious issues, I think you have a problem :/

I can see where its powerful, but how would full Artisan KD fair against Full DW?

Everything has its counters.

No one is going to learn retal an orc who has no science to begin with

Didnt you just say after 4 Learns the Orc will have equal science to anyone else? If they start pulling away in terms of science they will be massive targets for learns OOW since they can't turtle like a Human, Elf or Gnome can.

The numbers may well not be perfect for the changes, but its more the principles I'm trying to get accross. Building credits could be halved rather than negated, Learns could be 50% bonus rather than 100%, etc.

[hsihp81]

Some of the ideas about artisan and dungeons seem to be interesting though

Except for better intel through torture. That only works on 24.

...On second thought, I guess it would be right at home in a fantasy game... :p

[lightning reverand]

You seem to like food a lot -_-"

[Newark]

I love the dungeon idea - fantastic

[uzziah]

Warrior Changes

-15% Attack times
+25% Enemy Casualties, including Ambushes both ways
+25% Buildings Destroyed with Raze/Massacre

+25% enemy casualties really makes overpopping a province very hard which takes your warrior and make him far less useful strategically. Pitfalls is nice since it's optional extra casualities, having it as a race or persona bonus is really a penality strategically.

Orc changes
2. . . Learns yield double books.
3. Plague spreads 100% when someone hits Orc, 100% when Orc hits someone else.
5. Fog Immunity, Pitfalls Immunity, Nightmare Immunity.

6. All other bonuses/penalties remain the same. 30% Gains bonus multiplies with the learn bonus.

War Hero Changes

-50% Wages
-50% Draft Cost
+Enhanced Conquest, with +25% Gains
+25% More Specialist Credits, but not Building Credits

Orc/Warhero
-75% draft cost
-50% wages
+30% gains on attack
+25% spec credits
100% chance to give plague on attack
+25% gains on conquests
fog, pitfalls, nightmares, plague immune
~20-25% unprotected science gained per learn attack

-50% honor bonuses, horrible science production

Let me guess you want to play Orc/Warhero next age.

[Ishandra]

Nope I'm probably going DE/Rogue depending on other changes.

Orc would be a good attacker with these changes yes, but its still succeptible to MS/NS, Storms to underpop, Drought to slow drafting, FB, getting chained with low defence with leets home, its Plague is reduced to 2-16%, meaning double taps dont gain much from plague and if you cant get your hits down to 8hr return times, you never get to hit again with plague at max effectiveness.

The changes help it build up an army quickly, but they do nothing to stop it being killed the same as now, other than pitfalls immunity. Orc would still be a strong pure attacker with WH but couldnt match the speed or T/M resistances of an Elf/Warrior.