That's a fine T/M.

[Iovan]

Waah wah wah. Dark Elf isn't ruined by this. It is just now more even with other races. If it turns out terrible you will find out and it can be changed next age. I have a feeling that it won't ruin them.

[Catwalk]

Toadi, do you still maintain that elf is unplayable?

[FaeryRediculous]

I'm playing Elf/Rogue in Gen and It is kicking butt. With -50% losses, -50% Wages, all the def spells on magic and clear sight for theivery they make them the ultimate hybrid.
+1 mana reg and +1 stealth reg and access to a ton of ops/spells is hard to beat.

[hatter]

Dark Elves were far from overpowered - I warred a bunch this age - and their main strength comes from the combination of increased stealth regeneration and free magic. Addressing these is a much smarter choice if you want to weaken the Dark Elves, their offense is not the problem and their army is already hindered by the defensive elite.

The suggested change pretty much kills the only true A/M in this game and limits it to a subpar T/M role.

but the +1 stealth and free magic (esp. ToG) is what makes DE interesting.

We lost a war to a bunch of DE rogues this age - primarily because our Ms didn't use Expose thieves enough. If we had ETed enough, we still may have lost because of their ToG ability in the long run if not countered. Had we played better we would have won - that fine line is what makes Utopia a good game. DE as it is now exemplifies this.

[Ishandra]

Or you could have just double massacred each of them hatter, since DE has pitiful defence if they have a usable offence.

By the time they ToG back their thieves, with a low income from massacres, you should have chained down a few of them into oblivion.

[VT2]

Dark elf is heavily overrated, and Sully's kingdom proved it better than I ever could.

Ezzer doesn't seem to have had that great a success running mostly dark elves, either.

[Dillbert]

What decent DE ToGs in war? I'm DE this age and I run high draft so ToG is practically useless -- and surely a few MS on the opponents is better?

I don't like this change from 6/0 to 5/0. Made my mind up. Maybe hurt them elsewhere, I don't know, +15% military expenses? Someone else might have a better idea.

[FaeryRediculous]

Well if they just want to make a Dark Elf T/M only then mission accomplished. But by giving it the Orc they havent really helped the Orc too much but they have certainly hurt the Dark Elf quite a bit.

[Shalinder]

THey helped the orc only in the respect that orc can make offense specs with credits during war and by doing so they will have a pretty good offense through out the war. THey just need to watch their defense to make sure they dont slip up on it.

[hatter]

Or you could have just double massacred each of them hatter, since DE has pitiful defence if they have a usable offence..

yep, that was exactly what was asked for (!!), but perhaps not strongly enough.

Dilbert, with DE Rogue A/T, spare mana seems to be used for income first (via ToG and highish guild %) and then offense ops if income isn't needed. Makes for an interesting war race.

But... overall they do need a boost with the suggested prelim changes. Maybe minus 25% resource loses might be the way to go (it would make them much more interesting, to me anyway). That would make for excellent as TM and a sleeper attacker race. It would also encourage more aggressive TM strats (using lower defense)

[Dillbert]

I'm DE Mystic, and not used ToG once in war. How can you have spare mana in war anyway?

[VT2]

Adding natural reduction to resource- and land-losses to a T/M race is stupid.

It's comparable to making gnome immune or resistant to fireballs.

[Ishandra]

Just put the elite to 6/6 for 1k GC 7 NW.

Lower the Magic damage to 10-20% Bonus at most.

[hatter]

Adding natural reduction to resource- and land-losses to a T/M race is stupid.

It's comparable to making gnome immune or resistant to fireballs.

It helps TMs + encourages them to risk lower defence (as massacres will be less effective).

It also makes DE hybrids more resistant in the pre-war period, and allows them to be more aggressive when sending offense.

[VT2]

Helping T/M is good, because...?

What hybrid are you speaking of here? 5/6, with it all coming from suicidal, dead-expensive, networth-inefficient elites, does not make for good A.

The only realistic hybrid we'll see dark elf as is T/M.