Returning from LONG absence . . . M/T help

[Delryn]

Hey all,

I used to play Utopia a long time ago. I think my first full age was the first age Undead were introduced. Now I see a ton has been changed, but I'd like to get back into things.

I'm thinking I'd like to try a Mage/Thief as a simple way to get back into the game and then maybe go attacker next age.

At any rate, I'm trying to avoid a rainbow strategy, but here is what I'm thinking.

12 Homes
8 Farms
10 Banks
10 Guilds
10 Towers
20 Forts
20 Libraries
10 Thieve's Dens

What do you think? Will this get me through the age? Any constructive criticism is more than welcome. Thanks!

[Palem]

TM is now considered obsolete. Your kd would appreciate an A/T or A/M more than a TM.

And I would have to know Race/Pers before I could even comment on the build.

[Delryn]

Ok, if T/Ms are obsolete, then things certainly HAVE changed. I'm wondering, however, how you can do an effective A/M? In the old days, you could do an A/M of sorts, but you were always under severe threat of having your mages assasinated because you could never have high enough of a TPA to protect them because you had so much invested in your military.

I guess the next obvious question is WHY has the T/M become obsolete? Aren't the damaging spells and ops done in war just as valuable now as they used to be? Also, wouldn't the T/M do well as an exploring province? Between exploring and 'dicing, you can grow well enough, you should have plenty of defense to protect yourself, and you can make someone's life miserable via ops/spells if they do hit you. I'm thinking this is more useful in a ghetto or non-warring kingdom, etc.

Also, whats up with the recruiting forum now? It used to be you weren't allowed to directly recruit specifically for your kingdom. I take it this has changed? So many changes . . . oh well, its to be expected.

The race/personality I was thinking of was Elf/Mystic. Not very original, I know, but as I mentioned, I'm looking for simplicity while I get back into things.

I did notice that the biggest kingdom on my island is all orcs and elves. Is it safe to say that these are the two best races, then?

Obviously alot has changed, and if anyone who used to play back when I did would like to point out some of the major gameplay differences, I'd appreciate it. Not everything is as obviously different as I'm sure it is underneath, etc.

Again, thanks for the help.

[Jube]

Not that the ops are less powerful, just the game evolving. People realised that a kingdom full of hybrids can do more damage than the old setups.

[_greenie]

Not that the ops are less powerful, just the game evolving. People realised that a kingdom full of hybrids can do more damage than the old setups.

mmm, im pretty sure ops are less powerful now...
a T/M was once feared for their ability to take an attacker out of a war, now you need 2-3 of them

[Ezzerland]

What _greenie said.

Ops were weakened and changed quite a bit. Similar to how attacks and etc were changed around, and how its rather difficult to actually remove players from war these days.

The players just adapted to what gave them the most power. Some kingdoms still carry T/M's, but they are rather few and far between. As is said, because its simply more damaging to have an A/M A/T kd. T/M's, at least in the top, typically require pretty insane activity. Mainly because there is always someone around that needs MV's, NS'd or etc.


An effective A/M cannot fully stop an effective A/T from AW or etc, but they most certainly can slow them down. This really depends on your ability as a player to adapt to what you are facing.

I may come back tomorrow and toss you some kind of strat. What goal did you have in mind with your elf? FB chaining?

[VT2]

Ops are all stronger, magic is unchanged - except for meteors, which had their power cut several times over the years.
Magic also requires less runes now, and towers make more of them.

[MrCaid]

People realised that once you get active and get your entire kingdom to attack, a good TM is put to rest in 5-10 massacres.

We have some fullfledged T/M's in the kingdom, three of them manage to put MS 24/7 on enemies most of the time. It kinda depends on the enemies you are facing though. T/M's need up to 5-6 WPA raw to be able to deal a lot of damage.
Don't be fooled though, MS is still really strong, fireballs can still be a real pain and when things combine, it's a serious threat to your province.
But when somebody pulls you that AND also takes your acres, that's a beating. Hence: Hybrids.

You can just do more damage when you do both. Full on attacker gets blown to pieces by hybrids, TM's get wasted by hybrids too. So don't be on the funny end and do a hybrid (unless there's a team strategy that is set otherwise).

Btw, I did see some scary landlusts this age. 2k acre people on eachother, 50 acre landlust, sickness.

[Delryn]

Ok, I'm really not trying to be thick about things here. It's not that I don't believe you guys, its just I'm having a hard time with the mechanics. Perhaps its just that Utopia isn't like most games.

For instance, in most games, specialists beat those who split their attention between two or more things. Following that logic, pure attacker beats attacker/mage. This makes sense to me because if the attacker isn't worrying so much about having WPA or TPA (to protect the WPA), then he's got a buttload more room for offensive power. This means that while, say (and this is in theory, I'm still in protection and all my utopia experience is from years ago), while the A/M can tap them once, the pure attacker can turn around and tap the A/M at least twice, perhaps more. Do the magic spells really make that huge a difference?

I'm in a kingdom that only has a handful of provinces, and only half of them active. I like ghettos like this because I enjoy the building process, tedious though it might be. Is an A/M something that needs support from the rest of the kingdom, or can they stand on their own? Also, it seems to me the wizarding aspect of things only comes into big play when in wars. If you're not in hostile/war, you can't really do all the really harmful spells, right?

Well, this is me just exposing my ignorance, but I do want to learn and I thank you all for the advice. Please continue to help me clear this stuff up.

Thanks again.

[forum name]

A pure attacker is no longer able to sacrifice WPA and TPA for extra pure offensive power. With an increase in A/T hybrids, the more popular of the two, there is more thievery running around in a war. A pure attacker still must maintain respectable thievery defense, and aside from Watchtowers, that means a higher raw TPA.

The difference between the raw TPA needed to defend decently against enemy thievery, and the raw TPA needed to be an effective offensive A/T, are rarely very noticeable. Modifiers are what make an A/T stronger with their thievery. A pure attacker can run 2.00 raw TPA without modifiers to have decent defense against enemy thievery, while an A/T can run 4.00 raw TPA and boost it to a respectable and effective modified TPA with enough modifiers (racial, buildings, science). Not really enough extra population between 2.00 and 4.00 raw TPA to faciliate that much more military strength. Plus, an A/T can weaken it's target's defense with thievery, lowering their need for more offense when it's time to attack. Overall, a pure attacker province certainly does not have a "buttload" of extra population to devote to offense anymore.

As far as A/M is concerned, it's harder to achieve success, which is why it's less popular than A/T. Less direct military damage with spells, more reliance on runes, so yes, an A/M is probably not as strong as a pure attacker. I'm much less experienced with the A/M style, so I'll limit my comments. :)

[Dolgil]

Science has changed a great deal. Those libs you listed early on are completely useless. Science has been weakened considerably.

Net worth per offensive points and same for defensive are at least as important as opa and dpa. NW/a is not so important once you get above 150 or so depending on the length of the age.

Pumping is something really no longer done so much.

Attacker tpa has risen to 2 rather than the old standby of one. Wpa has risen too, but not quite as much.

The main driving force of this has been the lower net worth costs for offense as compared to defense and the switch away from land based gains to net worth based gains. T/Ms simply can not get enough defense and still be any good. You will get the 40 dpa 80 opa attacker feeding off of such players.

It's an offensive game now and not the defensive game it once was.

[Delryn]

Wow, things have changed indeed.

Is science something that can more or less be ignored, then? Or just buy it at the standard rate without libraries or schools as you have the ability?

As an offensive game, now, is it safe to assume that you will always meet with retribution for any grab you make, so you'd better make sure you're taking a ton? Meaning, defense is not as important as offense, as long as you can double tap your opponent and he can only hit you once?

[forum name]

Is science something that can more or less be ignored, then? Or just buy it at the standard rate without libraries or schools as you have the ability?

Ignore science at your own risk. With the current science system, it's easier to build science up over time and maintain respectable levels in the important categories. Ignoring science puts you at a distinct disadvantage about a month into the game, if not sooner. Still, IMO, the days of pumping science are over. Unless you plan to run a province that focuses on science as a strength (Humans and Sages for instance), it's not worth going overboard.

As an offensive game, now, is it safe to assume that you will always meet with retribution for any grab you make, so you'd better make sure you're taking a ton? Meaning, defense is not as important as offense, as long as you can double tap your opponent and he can only hit you once?

That seems to be a more popular mindset, though not as easy to accomplish. Attack smart outside of war and you'll rarely be retaliated against, but once inside a war, running low defense is a one-way ticket to being chained. That really isn't news though. If you're active enough to keep taking in land, then you can at least stay afloat in a war. Staying ahead is a different story.

I am personally a fan of a slower, longer attacking style, one that ignores Barracks in favor of Guard Stations. One big gain combined with lower losses during retaliation is often less demanding than having to attack every 10 hours just to keep up with standard land losses. But that's just me.

[Dolgil]

Attack early, attack often, and attack again is the way to win wars. Best to have about the same dpa as the rest of your kd mates so that you do not stick out.

[Jobolob]

Attack early, attack often, and attack again is the way to win wars. Best to have about the same dpa as the rest of your kd mates so that you do not stick out.

Early on this age I was in a full Undead KD (I was Elf). I had higher DPA than all of them obviously since they were all running huge amounts of offence. We were warring Undead KDs. In wars I rarely got attacked, and when they realised that I had been quitely achieving huge numbers and grown massively it was too late. I had already ToG'ed and pumped my def specs up so they could only break me once with army out instead of doubling and tripling like they were all used too with my fellow KD mates.

It all depends on what your KD wants to run and achieve, Im not one for full TM's I prefer Hybrids. But thats me. :D