The uses of Homes . . .

[Avenger]

vines is a comedian in rl?
Cause you gotta be very very smart to play this dumb role, maybe he's making fun of us all.


Or not.

[geln0r]

well, 10-15% homes is perfectly fine if it fits in with your personal style, imo. You cant really make an argument for or against because it depends on so many other factors. On some provs, 15% homes are perfectly reasonable, on another they are BS.

50% are rubbish though, thats all im saying.

[Micke-]

well in 99% of the situations you're right geln0r but if you're in a complete ghetto where you wanna see how good ur prov can be in terms of opa/dpa etc 50% homes might be a "fun-try setup"

nothing I would run competetive though.

[Micke-]

all im saying is go easy on other people, stop and think for a bit.... is this really how you would want to be treated if you were vines for example?

be nice!

[Delryn]

I'm thinking that the effects of overpop didn't exist years ago when I played, so this is something I didn't take into consideration. I was thinking, "Well yeah, you have a max pop, when you lose acres, pezzies and whatnot are going to leave because you don't have room for them, duh." But I didn't realize that it also affected your ability to use your military, thieves, and etc. That stinks. I hope it gets changed. That's kinda like a backdoor "Happiness" model, and we all know how great that was.

My gripe is this: BE is a bugger. Go too high on draft and your BE goes down the toilet. Science mitigates this somewhat, but it seems, at least compared to the old days, science is harder to get and has less effect anyway. Without very much sci, though I'm trying, but sitll just starting out, going to 60% draft to be militarily competitive shrinks my BE to 90% or less. That stinks. I hate that balancing act, especially when you have suiciders who will hit you no matter what. Its hard to run a balanced province that isn't taking advantage of some gimmick or other. Bleh.

[_greenie]

I'm thinking that the effects of overpop didn't exist years ago when I played, so this is something I didn't take into consideration. I was thinking, "Well yeah, you have a max pop, when you lose acres, pezzies and whatnot are going to leave because you don't have room for them, duh." But I didn't realize that it also affected your ability to use your military, thieves, and etc. That stinks. I hope it gets changed. That's kinda like a backdoor "Happiness" model, and we all know how great that was.

My gripe is this: BE is a bugger. Go too high on draft and your BE goes down the toilet. Science mitigates this somewhat, but it seems, at least compared to the old days, science is harder to get and has less effect anyway. Without very much sci, though I'm trying, but sitll just starting out, going to 60% draft to be militarily competitive shrinks my BE to 90% or less. That stinks. I hate that balancing act, especially when you have suiciders who will hit you no matter what. Its hard to run a balanced province that isn't taking advantage of some gimmick or other. Bleh.

2 quick things
the overpop thing was brought in cause of hell-swarming, where people would drop to ~50% of current land, and not have to worry
as long as BE is >80% for most of age, and mid to high-80's towards end of age, i wouldnt worry about it too much

BE below 80 is slight worry, but most people have ~85-80% (dwarves and pumped humies obvious exceptions)

[Lordwarallied]

well, I am personally in no aim to reach 50% homes, but I am neither against homes all together,

the benefits they bring is too good to neglect.

a mere 10-15% homes will increase the overall performance greatly at higher drafts, up your amount of drafted troops with lots while still being able to maintain a working province with ~~ the amount of income as before. while ur stats skyrocket.

people arguing against this may say "sure it works for a static prov blabla, and only at high draft"

but exactly what are you doing prior to wars?, you stay static and you increase ur draft, aka pump your province. Now, while IN war never build any homes because your prov will never be at exactly max-pop anyway and you will always have buildings in progress increasing ur BE (not enough jobs since not all the buildings are complete) so the only effect your homes has in war, is the potential top ppa and the small BR bonus.

instead, while in war use ur incomming acres to fortify the shrinking numbers on the rest of ur strat, rax,tg,dungeons, banks whatever...

be careful on what race/perc combo you overdraft at, if your kd is generally out for war-wins/honor or w/e and not aiming for the NW charts, I can really recommend the use of high draft and 10-15% homes even while warring, but remember what I wrote above, dont build any in war.

You will have to neglect it, and dont blah blah the static issue, every single bit of time, money, research, will be the decisive factor of whether you and your kd will make it or not. i dont see how your prov will benefit "greatly" from 10-15% homes. how can it? show me your numbers and ill show you without homes! all numbers homes give are completly insignificant in ANY set up and situation. the real argument out there is for the gnomes, and as i have mentioned, any % that you dont depend on is a good %, being able to switch strats and move builds to the right place at the right time is what can give you the upper hand in many situation mid to long term. Gnomes make you a lot more dependable and restrict your ability to grow, being stronger than you could be, and ultimatly survive. having more pop + sci, then giving it a home kicker will just sky rocket ur farms needs to the roof. so for each 1% of homes you give it, u need an other 1% farms if you somewhat sci the food. so hows that a benefit? whatever a home can do, TGs,forts,GSs,guilds,TDs, arms can do it better! if you are skilled, which isnt really needed, you can both maximize your use of the BE with no homes to other build strats(and with sci use) and have no disadvantage whatsoever to an other prov.

[otokonoko]

Lordwarallied,

So you think you can science pump an undead to have decent BE without homes?

Ok,

make a build undead heavy hitter

with .7opnw .25dpnw 2.5wpa 1tpa
Also factor in 20% GS 0% forts and 5epa.

without homes and with your 10%(20% for any other race) in tools science you will be lucky to have over 70% BE.

with my 15% homes I have .66opnw, .28dpnw, 1.5wpa 1.5tpa, and 75% BE.

This is a challange for you to create allot better numbers than what I use without homes, and the numbers I am trying to achieve.

The next part is, how would you protect your sciences?

[Lordwarallied]

Lordwarallied,

So you think you can science pump an undead to have decent BE without homes?

Ok,

make a build undead heavy hitter

with .7opnw .25dpnw 2.5wpa 1tpa
Also factor in 20% GS 0% forts and 5epa.

without homes and with your 10%(20% for any other race) in tools science you will be lucky to have over 70% BE.

with my 15% homes I have .66opnw, .28dpnw, 1.5wpa 1.5tpa, and 75% BE.

This is a challange for you to create allot better numbers than what I use without homes, and the numbers I am trying to achieve.

The next part is, how would you protect your sciences?

im not responsible for poor race choices. if you NEED homes because of your race choice, then its your fail not mine.what do you want me to say? build 20% dongeons to fill in thejobs? undeads are bad, and go in any thread (realest and friends, VT2 consortium) and they will tell you that your case is hopeless. thats why undeads kd are not in top and orcs/elves/dwarves are.

EDIT: protect your what??? who the hell would learn an undead?!?! more importantly, dont tell me your running schools to protect it cause then there is absolutly nothing we can do to help. to protect ur sci is learn, if ur ever getting learned, that should keep it up. and yea. best way to protect it is not getting hit.

RE-EDIT: and there is ways you can have an heavy hitter undead if u choose the personality right and if you dont rainbow ur strat to much.

ill post something up soon for you. i gtg eat.

[VT2]

Let's look at a few key things.
1) you can't get good science on an undead, because the race has penalties to this area.
2) you can't get badass offense easily, because the race has penalties to this area.
3) you can't be a badass T, because the race has penalties to this area.
4) your defense will always suck, because your race has less turtlepower than orc.
5) you have a mediocre spellbook, and no bonuses to magic, so you can't be a badass M.
6) bar no offensive losses, you have no direct or indirect bonuses to economy.

You don't require food, but food is always plentiful.
You have an awesomely powerful offensive elite, that you can't control the growth of, which limits your offense.
You spread plague, but this is very random, and not under your control.
With badass offense, you're forced to go for anonymity, which means your attacks will be slower, or risk getting ambushed, so your offense dies.

Face facts - undead blows.

Orc and dwarf do straight-up attackers better, elf and dwarf are better wizards, and human is a better thief.

[Lordwarallied]

i think VT2 said it all for you,homes cannot save any races, specially undeads.

[Micke-]

ok Lordwarallied:

here is my build for elf/mystic

(w/o libs)
17.1% Income
13.9% Building Effectiveness
9.4% Population Limits
63.5% Food Production
10% Gains in Combat
56.6% Thievery Effectiveness
91% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production

1. Homes:(10%)
2. Farms:(8%)
3. Banks:(15%)
4. Training Grounds:(19%)
5. Barracks:(12%)
6. Guilds: (11%)
7. Towers: (7%)
8. Libraries:(10%)
9. Stables: (8%)


Total Modified Offense: 158,267 (86.86 per Acre)
Practical (100% elites): 158,267 (86.86 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 158,335 (86.90 per Acre)
Practical (0% elites): 75,504 (41.44 per Acre)

Thieves: 3,540 (1.94 per Acre / 100% Stealth)
Wizards: 7,222 (3.96 per Acre / 71% Mana)

goal, 5wpa 1tpa (same pop% used like mine) 40dpa with army out as much off as possible. Baron honor.

ok, now ur turn show me how to get better numbers I know for a fact this aint optimal, but its a good way on its way.

(considering dropping my libs, put 5% extra homes, add 3% rax, 2% guilds)

[VT2]

Ditch the stables, the libraries, and the banks, raise your draft, get more TPA, increase your raw WPA, get better science.

Yeah.

[Lordwarallied]

ok Lordwarallied:

here is my build for elf/mystic

(w/o libs)
17.1% Income
13.9% Building Effectiveness
9.4% Population Limits
63.5% Food Production
10% Gains in Combat
56.6% Thievery Effectiveness
91% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production

1. Homes:(10%)
2. Farms:(8%)
3. Banks:(15%)
4. Training Grounds:(19%)
5. Barracks:(12%)
6. Guilds: (11%)
7. Towers: (7%)
8. Libraries:(10%)
9. Stables: (8%)


Total Modified Offense: 158,267 (86.86 per Acre)
Practical (100% elites): 158,267 (86.86 per Acre)
Total Modified Defense: 158,335 (86.90 per Acre)
Practical (0% elites): 75,504 (41.44 per Acre)

Thieves: 3,540 (1.94 per Acre / 100% Stealth)
Wizards: 7,222 (3.96 per Acre / 71% Mana)

goal, 5wpa 1tpa (same pop% used like mine) 40dpa with army out as much off as possible. Baron honor.

ok, now ur turn show me how to get better numbers I know for a fact this aint optimal, but its a good way on its way.

(considering dropping my libs, put 5% extra homes, add 3% rax, 2% guilds)

you have libs?????? barracks are meh OOW imo, towers level higher than 2% is also meh OOW. ditch stables to that point. its been proven they dont offer more offense points than what TG's can do for the same %. ur an elf mystic? in war or out of pump i would reduce significantly guilds and towers to 3-4% and 1% respectivly. you bank, farm level is not a bad one. like VT2 said, specially if ur TM, raise ur wpa, specially ur tpa remove ur darn homes (or leave it at 5% if ur more comfortable)

this should give you something like: 45-50% of builds % free of use. you could add up a bit more TG's, GS's, banks to get some extra sci into food so u can reduce ur farms level, TD's OOW or TD's/orWT'S if in war. GS would take a chunk of it tho. or just go with a spam mix of arms/hosp so you can get ur higher draft rate and attack losses in line. but its not the best option

so for elf mystic OOW with no bank:

5% farms
20% TG's
15% arms (until armies are trained then switch to something fitting the situation like (forts, GS, towers/rax)
11%forts
20% GS (or boost it even higher from arms if u feel like it)
15% guilds
2% towers (or even 0.5 with that sci of urs)
15%TD's

u may add 5% homes when ur finished to get an overall small effective boost. altho it isnt the same as an actual build giving u the boost.

[VT2]

He's got tree of gold, and can steal money if he needs it.
Why are you all so obsessed with making excess cash, when there are a billion and one n00bs out there you can steal from?