The price of hating

[Grimripper]

after discussing the situation on the boards with a kdmate of mine he pointed out this thread where a good discussion took place.

i don't want to dig the thread out of the grave but i do feel the need to ask the ones who are pro the hate campaign (palem specifically) this - did you ever consider the price you're paying with the hate campaign?

i agree that it might give an incentive for OMAC to work. might be even better than a positive incentive. but with all the negativity and hate it also has a price. new comers that come to the forum see that they are unwelcome into the community and are less likely to stay.

don't you agree that building up the community (or at least slowing down its decay) so it will last is more important than getting the new code ready?

[UnknownGhost]

Game will die shortly after new code comes out. Stop wasting your breath.

[raiman]

I agree.

The positive will always win over the negative in the long run.

A hate campaign can have no good lasting benefit.

[nuah]

Mickster banned me for a month, because I can't play well with others.

See ya in November

[Palem]

did you ever consider the price you're paying with the hate campaign?

Yes. The ends justifies the means.

new comers that come to the forum see that they are unwelcome into the community and are less likely to stay.

1. The hate campaign is aimed at OMAC, not new comers.
2. The forums were a hostile place before the hate campaign started. I would say trolls are more likely to keep new comers out of the forums than the hate campaign.
3. You're assuming they would react that way. It appears you are new to the forums, but you seem to have stuck around.
4. If I stumbled into the forums of a new game I found and saw community members that have an eighth of the amount of passion for the game as this community does, I would be very inclined to join in the group (assuming I thought the game was good/could be good)

don't you agree that building up the community (or at least slowing down its decay) so it will last is more important than getting the new code ready?

No. While I do love my kd and have stuck it out with them for quite a few ages now in our little ghetto, I will only continue to do so if the game remains fun and that lies in the hands of OMAC (in the long run). They've shown quite well that they have no idea how to handle Mehul's code and can not do much of anything with the game besides boring number adjustments. Once the game is dead it doesn't matter how strong the community is, with no game, there's no point in staying around.

That said, I said I would stop when I thought S&B were showing serious improvement. They've done that. The blog posts don't consist of mostly Q&A and actually have substance to them. The beta is up and running and while it does still have problems, it shows that they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. Since they've done this my attacks have halted. Say what you will about the method, but the job is getting done.

[Pillz]

This is Utopia's last enjoyable age before we get new code. It will last another 4-6 weeks. At that point, they will force the "improved" code upon us, which will be broken far behind our wildest dreams and destroy any ounce of fun that was left in this miserable excuse for a game.

That is to say, if they give us the new code AT ALL.

When they were supposed to "update" NationStates2 they simply took it offline and directed it's users to another one of their games (persumably FakeUtopia). I would be pretty willing to bet money that they will do the same thing with us. Anyone whose played the Alpha/Beta can not honestly believe that they have spent 8 months working on that code - and even if they did, what should they care? They spent a year and a half creating and running NationStates2 before they abruptly closed it without reason or warning.

OMAC's only interest lies in FakeUtopia and their famed Playboy Manger.

[Magmalava]

As in real life, people don't like complainers. They are not listened to and are often the first to get sacked from business, even if they are right. Doesnt mean you have to be positive all the time, but can deliver the message in a different, less negative manner.

[UnknownGhost]

Mickster banned me for a month, because I can't play well with others.

See ya in November

Well I would give you my opinion of mickster nuah, but then I would be banned with you. :)

[Grimripper]

Yes. The ends justifies the means.

just to make sure i understand you right - you're saying that having no new players is justified?

1. The hate campaign is aimed at OMAC, not new comers.

i know the aim. did you ever consider the side effects?
it's like chemotherapy - you kill the cancer (hitting OMAC) but you also hit a lot of healthy cells too (the new players who come into the forum and decide they dont want to be a part of the community).

2. The forums were a hostile place before the hate campaign started. I would say trolls are more likely to keep new comers out of the forums than the hate campaign.

i totally agree. i also think that the hate campaign is not make the forums less hostile and i dont think it counters the effect that the trolls have.

why not invest your time in fighting the trolls and making the forums less hostile? making the forums more inviting and getting more players will make the game a lot more fun (if you played during any age with more than 40k players you know the difference).

3. You're assuming they would react that way. It appears you are new to the forums, but you seem to have stuck around.

im hardly new. just didnt create an account since this new forum went up. i brought this discussion up after hearing from some of my new kd-mates what they think about the forum and their experiences with it. saying the forums are uninviting is a huge understatement - evidence for that is in all the posts by new people who has "dont flame me" in their posts.

4. If I stumbled into the forums of a new game I found and saw community members that have an eighth of the amount of passion for the game as this community does, I would be very inclined to join in the group (assuming I thought the game was good/could be good)

while you and i know that the community is passionate it's hardly visible for a new comer unless he sticks around for some time.

No. While I do love my kd and have stuck it out with them for quite a few ages now in our little ghetto, I will only continue to do so if the game remains fun and that lies in the hands of OMAC (in the long run). They've shown quite well that they have no idea how to handle Mehul's code and can not do much of anything with the game besides boring number adjustments. Once the game is dead it doesn't matter how strong the community is, with no game, there's no point in staying around.

the game is the community. the game will not die as long as the community stays strong. Mehul made some crap changes (and some good ones too) in his day and had lots of bugs which are still with us today. the size of the player base is a much bigger factor than any change that was ever done to the game. sure Mehul and OMAC's failures didnt help the game but the community could at least try to counter it and not help kill it.

That said, I said I would stop when I thought S&B were showing serious improvement. They've done that. The blog posts don't consist of mostly Q&A and actually have substance to them. The beta is up and running and while it does still have problems, it shows that they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. Since they've done this my attacks have halted. Say what you will about the method, but the job is getting done.

i have serious doubts that your method is what made the job done. i also dont know if any other method would be useful in getting the job done. what i do know is that making the community less/more inviting is something that can be seen because it has nothing to do directly with OMAC. if you (not necessarily you personally) keep telling new comers that they suck and should go away you see less posters around and a smaller community. if the community will be more inviting i bet you'll see more new posters around. doesnt it worth a try?

[VT2]

"the game is the community." I'm sure on the planet you're from, that's part of reality, but your weak link here is, this is Earth.

[Palem]

just to make sure i understand you right - you're saying that having no new players is justified?

No. I'm saying no new forum members is justified and even that isn't the effect of the hate crusade. I've seen plenty of new members around here.

i know the aim. did you ever consider the side effects?
it's like chemotherapy - you kill the cancer (hitting OMAC) but you also hit a lot of healthy cells too (the new players who come into the forum and decide they dont want to be a part of the community).

I would not want to play with someone that's willing to not try a game because the forum didn't look like such a "nice place". That is a very naive attitude so I'll throw a big 'You're Welcome' to anyone that I've saved the hassle.

i totally agree. i also think that the hate campaign is not make the forums less hostile and i dont think it counters the effect that the trolls have.

The Hate Campaign isn't supposed to counter trolls or make the forums a nice place. Again, it has nothing to do with the members.

why not invest your time in fighting the trolls and making the forums less hostile? making the forums more inviting and getting more players will make the game a lot more fun (if you played during any age with more than 40k players you know the difference).

Well for starters I'm fine with a hostile forum. The forums represent the state of the game and the game is in shambles right now. On top of that, I get the feeling that you think the forums are some kind of a direct representation of the game. I'm the only member of my kd that regularly uses the forums. The only time anyone else wanders in here is when OMAC posts the game changes or something else very important and that's how it is for most kds. Only a very small % of overall utopians visit the forums and I would say the % is even smaller for new utopians.

im hardly new. just didnt create an account since this new forum went up. i brought this discussion up after hearing from some of my new kd-mates what they think about the forum and their experiences with it. saying the forums are uninviting is a huge understatement - evidence for that is in all the posts by new people who has "dont flame me" in their posts.

I ment new to the forums. Utopia doesn't get any new people because the game doesn't get advertised at all, which is another reason I'd like the code to get done ASAP.

the game is the community. the game will not die as long as the community stays strong. Mehul made some crap changes (and some good ones too) in his day and had lots of bugs which are still with us today. the size of the player base is a much bigger factor than any change that was ever done to the game. sure Mehul and OMAC's failures didnt help the game but the community could at least try to counter it and not help kill it.

That is where you are wrong. The game is not the community. While I do agree that the community is a huge part of the game, I believe that is a direct effect of the game. If the community made the game then the community would have left and found another game to play by now.

what i do know is that making the community less/more inviting is something that can be seen because it has nothing to do directly with OMAC. if you (not necessarily you personally) keep telling new comers that they suck and should go away you see less posters around and a smaller community. if the community will be more inviting i bet you'll see more new posters around. doesnt it worth a try?

OMAC has caused caused far more people to quit than I could ever hope to achieve. That is something that no one can deny. On top of that, the hate campaign (which you claim is a direct link to not attracting new players apparently) is a direct cause of OMAC's incompetence and inability to do their job. If OMAC would do their job, not only would there be no need for a hate campaign, but all of the people that have quit DIRECTLY because of them would still be here too.

If you want to blame someone, I suggest you blame OMAC.

[Waterbox]

Grimripper: It's not my job to give OMAC incentive to work, they can do their own job, and the reason people are on a "hate campaign" is because they apparently aren't doing their job well. Also, I think not being able to log into the game smoothly would turn new players off much faster than a douche bag on the forums.

Building up the community is also OMAC's job, not mine. Utopia is their business, if they choose not to advertise it, not to give reasonable consumer support, and not to keep it around any more that is their own decision.

[Palem]

Also, I think not being able to log into the game smoothly would turn new players off much faster than a douche bag on the forums.

lol did you just call me a douchebag? I think I'm very nice to people on these forums...well...people who don't say absurdly stupid things.

[Smiles]

While I am inclined to agree with Grimripper, I also disagree. Yes the forums of late have been swamped with anti-OMAC oriented spam, and some (although not much) constructive criticism. However, OMAC does need to know about how they are screwing everything up.
OMAC will not sell this game to another gaming firm, especially the way membership is moving; so we two choices:

1) Work with OMAC until the game gets to a point where the majority are happy.
2) Troll the crap out of the forums until the game is sure to die. (what we seem to be doing now)

Conversations in the forums will eventually shift popular opinion and lead users to take a negative outlook on the game.
Personally, I think that we need to shift the conversations in the forums back to talks about race/personality changes and game suggestions. It feels like we have been playing the same races since OMAC bought this game. (thanks for bringing back Mehul's Undead btw). Some new threads would help water down the pessimistic threads from the group of OMAC haters.

Some people (quite a few) still enjoy playing the game, and are optimistic that the new code will erase downtime and allow for more interesting (I %$c*ing hope so) game changes.

[Spliff]

lol did you just call me a douchebag? I think I'm very nice to people on these forums...well...people who don't say absurdly stupid things.

If I was you, I would not operate any heavy machinery.