Avians: Raiders and Pirates

[Mr Anon]

(FYI: I'm posting a new thread because the other is degrading into unrelated and unhelpful personal attacks.)


If avians come back they need a niche. Attacking fast isn't enough, gnomes attack fast too. Just being an attacker isnt enough. I suggest, making them into fast hitters, along the historical lines of Vikings or the Huns. They were mighty warriors who could mass armies, but their real power, the terror they instilled came from their raidings and plunderings. That can be their niche.

-----------------------
-50% attack time for plunders, learns, conquest and massacres
Double thievery effectiveness for intel and robberies
+1 ospec and dspec
+75% pop growth

+25% combat losses
can't use stables
7/3 elite $800
-----------------------


Now, they've still got a lackluster Econ, and in a landswapping war they'd be hard-put against other attackers. Outide of war, they'll be able to plunder and steal for good growth. Before war they'll get a few non-land waves in before switching to ultra fast conqs. They won't be able to put up the kinds of numbers other races do, and in war they won't be able to move the meter remarkably, but with fast conqs they'll do just fine. The thievery just rounds them out, gnomes can still run roughshod over them with damaging ops, but the avians will be the best robbers around, good at getting surveys and soms, and tough to get intel off of.

Quick note: depending on questions of power, the attack time bonus and combat losses can both be moved up or down 10% depending on views.
Additionally, a hidden weakness is that they won't take honor the way other races can.

[VT2]

Buffs:
-25% attack time
-30% training time
+75% Birth Rates
Immunity to Fog

Penalties:
+20% military losses
No Access to Stables

7/3 Elite - $750

That's better, but it would be even better if they didn't have any increased or decreased lossed, and instead got less credits, or something similar.

[Mr Anon]

Why fog?

[VT2]

Because dwarf is an obstacle that needs to become less of a must to tank your opponents mercilessly.

[Yoda]

wayyyy overpowered

[VT2]

How?

[UtopiaOfGreed]

Buffs:
-25% attack time
-30% training time
+75% Birth Rates
Immunity to Fog

Penalties:
+20% military losses
No Access to Stables

7/3 Elite - $750

That's better, but it would be even better if they didn't have any increased or decreased lossed, and instead got less credits, or something similar.

Stop copying me. Of course it's the best suggestion - I made it. But if you're going to copy me, at least attribute it...

[Zauper]

Mr Anon, there's a reason everyone ignored this suggestion in the thread. It's just not a very good one. [and why the hell would you rely on cqs to win wars? seriously?]

[Coke]

Well there hasn't been much use for conquest, it'd be interesting if one race was given a bonus for using it and see how it rolls with other races.

Just not in this particular combination.

[Bishop]

cq is + losses and - gains, hardly good for a race with +25% losses already :s

[bates]

+20% military losses?

is that enemy losses or personal losses? Attacking of defending yourself?


If you are going to make their niche as raiders, then there who niche includes +speed, and surprise. If you are "surprising" the enemy do you expect large losses? NO. It is the same concept as Pearl Harbor, the Japanese surprised the US, and incurred extremely minimal losses, while shelling out devastating enemy casualties. I'm sure you all know the story of pearl harbor.


I know +speed/+enemy casualties is quite OP, but we may be able to take away the speed. But my big thing is if you're surprising people you incur less casualties

[Coke]

-50% attack time for plunders, learns, conquest, massacre and raze
-50% Offensive Casualties for plunders, learns, conquest, massacre and raze (surprise element in speed)
Double thievery effectiveness for robberies
+2 Ospec (400gc)
+75% Birthrate

~~~~~~~~~~

No Stables and Dungeons (no horses or dungeons on ships)
-10% BE (Pirates are lazy)
-1 Dspec (250gc)
Access to only Basic Spells
Double military wages (pirates are greedy) or +10% Defensive Casualties (hard to defend from a ship)


Still might not be balanced, but what do you think?

Edit: 8/3 Elite - $950

This might not be a good race for any KD looking to grow in size but, the quick attack time for specific hits might be good for heavily warring KDs, altho they do come with their own weaknesses.

The -10% BE is a income handicap forcing them to make use of their bonuses to be able to what they want.

They have a nice Ospec bonus, but only get attack speed bonus on conquest not TM so if fast hit then no credits.

[Mr Anon]

VT2,
Respectfully, the race you suggest would probably work just fine. My problem is, that at nest, it creates a mediocre race. The power to do fast tms and/or razes is so scary, everyone is pre-nutuering them. They've got a weak Econ, average army, and a good first week burst strategy. After that they're like gnomes without thieves and lower pop, an hour or two faster, but nothing else worth mentioning. So yes, your suggestion would successfully create a mediocre attacker. (though 6 days into the age people will whine about them being too strong)

Fast non-tm/raze, and thief bonus allows them to suppliment their weak Econ, helps them maintain high sci, and then deal the most brutal pre-war massacre waves possible. You'd have to play them differently than any other race, which adds more to the game than just another decent attacker.

Bishop,
They still have tm. But they could choose between 1 tm or 2 conqs. With decent hosps and either wh or cleric they'll be okay with losses during war. And wh would also gove them better conqs and a bit of an Econ bonus.

Bates,
I believe the logic is something along the lines of
a. Flight gives speed but costs armor, thus higher losses.
b. Fast attack time requires some immediate balance.
That said, I wouldn't have a problem giving them something different, your reasons are good. Perhaps an increase training costs?

Coke,
Interesting, but too many features.

[garety]

Maybe i am wrong but Avains i thought were, griffins, half eagle half lion.

aka they fly, so they are immune to fog, should attack faster as they dont have to walk, and cant use horses......

not sure where this pirate idea came from

[Megiddo]

-50% attack time for plunders, learns, conquest, massacre and raze
-50% Offensive Casualties for plunders, learns, conquest, massacre and raze (surprise element in speed)
Double thievery effectiveness for robberies
+2 Ospec (400gc)
+75% Birthrate

~~~~~~~~~~

No Stables and Dungeons (no horses or dungeons on ships)
-10% BE (Pirates are lazy)
-1 Dspec (250gc)
Access to only Basic Spells
Double military wages (pirates are greedy) or +10% Defensive Casualties (hard to defend from a ship)


Still might not be balanced, but what do you think?

Edit: 8/3 Elite - $950

This might not be a good race for any KD looking to grow in size but, the quick attack time for specific hits might be good for heavily warring KDs, altho they do come with their own weaknesses.

The -10% BE is a income handicap forcing them to make use of their bonuses to be able to what they want.

They have a nice Ospec bonus, but only get attack speed bonus on conquest not TM so if fast hit then no credits.

Like the general gist of this thread - think the above evolution of it is best love the idea of a race with big bonuses for plunders etc. Think I'd stick with the plus 25% casualities for trad march and defence though.

At this stage might as well call the race Vikings.