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Thread: What hurts the most!

  1. #61
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
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    stop the train kids. how did grace talk and crown talk find its way into the same thread?
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  2. #62
    News Correspondent Mad_Scottish's Avatar
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    Hallo, you are fantastic as vomiting the definitions of facism, anarchy and what not. None of which as any relevance to any sort of discussion that has taken place. You threw facism into the hat as a tag for the way the kingdom was acting in behalf to the apparent events that took place, that lead up to grime defecting the province. Within a small fact of what facism is, it can be used as a basic definition of how top end kingdoms are run within the game. Single strong leader (monarch), everyone following that single leader, to the requirements, specifications and orders of that leader.

    You have run off on a complete tangent about the theory itself, which isnt even remotely the issue. Your above point about a contract and the restrictions on the individual being unamerican, this isnt america, this isnt even remotely a country or nation state in any fashion. Its a very clear cut situation, grime joined a kd, he was told the requirements, he failed to meet them, he was asked why he was failing to meet them and threw a hissy fit and defected a province, which wasnt his in the fist place. It was a petty and really childish act, given the fact that he accepted to be part of that kingdoms. No one is putting a gun to anyones head, no families are being threatened, you either do your job or you are replaced.

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    just ignore hallo, as he ignores what is said in this thread unless it helps him troll. In not responding to DHaran's reasoning about the subject, Hallo stays off subject and quotes something unrelated and doesn't address what was said to him and asked to refute; multiple times.

    octobrev, Grace is trying to play for top 5, and with a month left at least has a chance still to get top 1, the crown. Moreso than a rank 50 kingdom, by comparison. That is how it got brought into the thread.

    However, this thread is supposed to be about Grime. It's a big deal to people who organize kingdoms, because they know not to trust Grime in the future with the same trust given to him by Grace. We have moved on; there really isn't much we can do other than say it was a dick move, but we hope his life goes well, since life > game. Sadly, we at Grace are nerds, and are unable to follow his noble example, dictated to our leader with his parting words =)
    <3 Grime, <3 Danne, mercy FTW and such.

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    <3 Nuriho
    Last edited by Sashdev; 15-04-2010 at 17:45.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallo View Post
    "It is what it is, and if you can't handle it, you can leave." Where is the room for negotiation? For compromise? How could Grime EVER work things out if the KD was unwilling to conform to HIS needs? Grime was given a single choice, "leave our kd". It's not a discussion, a negotiation... he was told to leave, and what everyone expects is for him to leave.
    He was not told to leave. They simply approached him with a PM asking him why is he ALWAYS late for waves and his attacks. Then all of a sudden he just defects.
    Last edited by Sashdev; 15-04-2010 at 17:51.

  6. #66
    Post Demon Bijo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sashdev View Post
    He was not told to leave. They simply approached him with a PM asking him why is he ALWAYS late for waves and his attacks. Then all of a sudden he just defects.
    just wanted to say hello sashdev!

    long time no see ;)

  7. #67
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
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    octobrev, Grace is trying to play for top 5, and with a month left at least has a chance still to get top 1, the crown. Moreso than a rank 50 kingdom, by comparison. That is how it got brought into the thread.
    im willing to bet any rank 50 kd has an equal or greater chance at crowning than grace. prove me wrong!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuriho View Post
    Sadly, we at Grace are nerds.
    Nuriho, we're going to have words about this!

    Btw hi sashdev you noob.

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    Post Fiend DjTeddySpin's Avatar
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    Its just a difference between the mindset of a Top KD and someone who has never played in one. I agree that it can be harsh at times, but its been proven that Facism > Democracy. Look at the ranks if you have time, thats how the top KDs does things so if you don't like it, don't be part of it.

    You can think that your political ideals are correct, but we are talking about efficiency and what works here.

    I am not refering to Grace but as a general point of view, I would think that how the leadership/council bring their message forward is also very important. I know of this ef-up monarch in one of the top KD i was in being so hot-tempered he just keeps *****ing about every single thing, it just makes you want to bash him up or get back at him. For the player, you don't care if you screw his age. For the monarch, you sow what you reap. The top KD I was in looks pretty lousy now, though still in chart.

  10. #70
    Postaholic Hallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    Hallo, you seem to be missing one very important fact: It doesn't happen often.
    To say that an individual is likely to act out, that it is more likely than not, is an obvious lie. Or skewing of facts, however you wish to look at it.
    There is a general feeling of outrage that a player would take this path, that outrage stemming from the fact that it doesn't happen very often.
    Utopia is like the military, there is a chain of command. If you don't do what the leadership tells you to do to their satisfaction, their recourse is to replace you.
    You as a player in a kingdom, have an ability to suggest change, to express discontent, and come to a compromise. You are not morally entitled to defect. Yes, clearly Grime had the ability to, and in fact did defect, but the main problem is that it's simply not right. It's akin to a member of an army platoon running out to surrender and giving away his platoon's position. It's undeniably a dick move. That is all.
    Your argument, if I understand, is that the mere structure of a kingdom, that element of fascism, causes people to engage in these dick behaviours.
    I feel this was in good intentions... But let me explain a little.
    Fascism is a social structure deprived of individuality. "The Individual" thus cannot fit within fascism, and in turn is likely to act out. I know, and understand, why people are responding as such... but a pseudo-democracy, where people feel that they have an "opinion" in how the KD is run, even if they don't, can greatly reduce these occurances.

    And I'm happy you brought "the military" in... because they are, actually, fascists (well, "controlled" fascism... they're conditioned only to a certain point). But look again at how "the individual" responds when put in training... he acts out, strives to be "unique"... and is punished for that. Do note, that people who initially join the military undergo "conditioning". They're not actually being trained, they're being stripped of individuality such that they respond in accordance to protocol.

    From my interpretation of KD politics, they follow a structure even more pronounced than the military, which is what causes the problem. Do you know, that fascists actually feel good about doing morally wrong actions? A reference to fictional material, but "A Few Good Men" actually was about fascism in the military. The "Code Red" actually is an example of what happens under fascism... and note how the Cadets felt that they had done right! That they were justified in their actions. I think other studies showed that even after being unconditioned, fascists actually could not understand what was wrong with their past actions, but could understand the wrong in present actions.

    So you see, fascism is far more complex than a simple dictatorship, a monarchy or oligarchy... there is a level of complexity here that creates something truly fascinating. But am I wrong to proclaim that an individual will unconditionally resist becoming a fascist? No. This problem actually occurred because a KD took an "Individual" in before conditioning him to work within the KD. The same happens with military (and even transfers of "good men" [though I'm uncertain of the extent]) these transferee's undergo reconditioning to operate within the new unit.



    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    You are wrong. It rarely happens, which is the reason for this outrage. I thank the stars that the majority of the world understands hierarchy and the need to respect the chain of command. I shudder to think what kind of world we'd live in otherwise.
    One of the interesting things about fascism is there IS no "chain of command." Seriously. Fascism is very hive minded, people act in accordance to appeasing their "leader," but their leader is more a symbolic representation than an actual leader. While the leader does give orders, and the people do follow them to the letter... if the leader were to give orders that conflict with their conditioning doctrine, they would begin to question their leader and eventually denounce him as a "false leader" and one of their own would become the new leader. (notice, the change in leadership does not bring an end to the regime.)


    One might make a remark that they would never disobey their monarch, or even refute my above claims of military fascism. What if the Monarch, mid war, were to give orders for every prov to release all offense? If your response isn't "Hallo you're an idiot" then you're not a fascist. But what if that were to happen? Would you do it? What if you were about to win the war, everyone knew this, and because of that order you lost? (given that your intention was to win). What if a series of equally poor decisions lead to further failures?

    Or if your superior officer had turn chicken mid war, and was planning to defect. What, do you assume, would happen if his platoon were to discover this? Do you assume that they'd obey his orders to defect, that it was in their best interests? Or do you assume that they'd string him up by his entrails and leave him to be feasted upon by animals? Fascism is very hive minded, so if your CO were to order you, as an individual, to do something, it's not the same thing.

    In a dictatorship, that simply would not matter. People make actions based on their fear of contesting them. You'd be terrified to disobey your superior, if he wants to defect, even if you know that its wrong, you'd defect with him... and no one would try to stop him because they don't actually realize that NO ONE except him, wants to defect.... and thus that they are all alone in their discontent.


    So, drawing this minor deviation to a close... You wouldn't disobey your boss because your boss is a dictator... you fear the repercussions of your actions, and feel alone in your grievances (a.k.a why employers hate unions). But you would disobey your commanding officer, were the circumstances proper.


    *that really was much longer and broader than intended*
    Last edited by Hallo; 16-04-2010 at 03:40.
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  11. #71
    Postaholic Hallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuriho View Post
    just ignore hallo, as he ignores what is said in this thread unless it helps him troll. In not responding to DHaran's reasoning about the subject, Hallo stays off subject and quotes something unrelated and doesn't address what was said to him and asked to refute; multiple times.
    A) I don't avoid a discussion about a topic, I expand upon it, divulge myself into its intricacies, and expose the inherent flaws.
    It is true, that to do this, I must often divert the discussion... but what use would having a discussion be if the very best anyone could expect of me was a minor statement denouncing you all without explanation thenceforth?

    But, if you're referring to my activity as of late... I've been doing "opinion" posts, not debates. I don't respond to said posts because, well... they bore me. In fact, I pretty much forget about them because the arguments are rather mundane.

    This, however, is interesting.


    B) DHaran was fully addressed. He claimed "yes, KD's are fascists... but that is the best way"... my claim was simply that "when you use a fascist social order, the individual is likely to act out in unpredictable ways". He has yet to respond.

    C) Simply because you are unable to follow my parallels does not mean they're non-sequitor. Take Socrates as an example. He would introduce a parallel on a non-related subject, such that his opponent does not recognize the correlation; secure a statement of accord from his opponent, and then reveal the correlation thereby demonstrating his opponent had refuted his own argument. Now, not everyone could follow said parallels, but that doesn't mean he was "off topic" it only means he saw things in a much grander scope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sashdev View Post
    He was not told to leave. They simply approached him with a PM asking him why is he ALWAYS late for waves and his attacks. Then all of a sudden he just defects.
    From what I had read, I was under the impression they were doing exactly as I specified. Not that he had merely left with no plausible reason. Granted, I had only taken in a quarter of said posts, weighing more to those over 1 paragraph... but this is the first I had read that the KD had simply inquired about his tardiness, rather than requested him leave as a result.
    Just say "yes" and I'll go away.

  12. #72
    Postaholic Hallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Scottish View Post
    Hallo, you are fantastic as vomiting the definitions of facism, anarchy and what not. None of which as any relevance to any sort of discussion that has taken place. You threw facism into the hat as a tag for the way the kingdom was acting in behalf to the apparent events that took place, that lead up to grime defecting the province. Within a small fact of what facism is, it can be used as a basic definition of how top end kingdoms are run within the game. Single strong leader (monarch), everyone following that single leader, to the requirements, specifications and orders of that leader.

    You have run off on a complete tangent about the theory itself, which isnt even remotely the issue. Your above point about a contract and the restrictions on the individual being unamerican, this isnt america, this isnt even remotely a country or nation state in any fashion. Its a very clear cut situation, grime joined a kd, he was told the requirements, he failed to meet them, he was asked why he was failing to meet them and threw a hissy fit and defected a province, which wasnt his in the fist place. It was a petty and really childish act, given the fact that he accepted to be part of that kingdoms. No one is putting a gun to anyones head, no families are being threatened, you either do your job or you are replaced.
    A) Comprehending a political structure is crucial to debating the implications of it. Are you thus saying, if someone were to portray a complete absence of basic utopian knowledge, your solution would be to simply call them a noob and carry on? You would not attempt to explain their misconceptions, their wrong doings? What if the community were to agree with this person you had called a noob, and thence lashed out at you? Would you not make an attempt to justify your response?

    B) ""Single strong leader (monarch), everyone following that single leader, to the requirements, specifications and orders of that leader.""
    Ignoring the inherent flaw, that fascism is neither monarchy nor dictatorship. I ask this: What is your intent? You admit that my argument is concise and comprehensible by reiterating that which I said, thus leaving me with the perplexing notion that you're indicating that the only social order a KD can have is fascism.

    Certainly, you did not mean to say this. I would believe, that anyone who took the time to digest my vomit would have found it quite delectable...

    What of a pseudo-democracy?
    A central figure still leads, but rules by "favor of the people".
    He encourages people to question his judgment, will make gestures to give people the impression that he's considering it, when he's really just ignoring it. (This does not mean he does not punish persistent dissent... only that he tolerates it's existence)
    And, to regain the faith of the people, will do occasional grand gestures to instill a feeling of appeasement.

    Look at Chavez, the "elected dictator", there's plenty of dissent... yet he stays in power, not with threats, but by getting the people to believe he actually cares.


    C) I certainly did not say it was unamerican. I drew a parallel to a social system that advocates liberty. This was very finely said, to minimize the effective use of "american" as my reasoning. A social structure can exist anywhere, regardless of government... and a government can exist anywhere, regardless of boundaries.

    D) True, the KD is unable to physically harm Grime. But they can do psychological damage... they can demean him or bring him to ridicule... they can continually op his province, they can have an alliance join in and help destroy his will to go on. Torture needs not come in the form of a gun, there are small subtleties that can have similar effects.

    E) Given how much you seem to detest theorizing, you'll likely hate me for calling Utopia a Nation! Ask yourself this question, what defines a nation? Is it it's borders, or it's people? Can a nation exist without borders, without these physical constraints, and simply present itself as the collection of people it unites?

    You issue these definitions as determinants, as if they have meaning. They do not. You may strive away from ideological discussions, yet you must acknowledge that our comprehension of reality is little more than the collection of our individual speculations and theories. You cannot issue summations that only state "this is how we saw the world before you came, this is how we shall see the world ad infinitum"; it's not objective! It doesn't even attempt to justify itself.

    So thus, I ask. If your singular point is that "before hallo" the typical manner in which people who performed actions similar to grime was mass ridicule and insult... and that I do not have enough influence to change it... then what point do you really have?
    Just say "yes" and I'll go away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallo View Post
    And I'm happy you brought "the military" in... because they are, actually, fascists (well, "controlled" fascism... they're conditioned only to a certain point).

    One of the interesting things about fascism is there IS no "chain of command." Seriously.
    Right there. That shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Obviously I raised the point about the military because it is a fascist system. You'll also note that fascism is the most efficient and effective system. Notwithstanding discontent, fascism is also the only system the military could possibly effectively operate under. Similarly in Utopia, kingdoms must necessarily be fascist. So if you can't see that, there's nothing more to say.

    In the military, you don't disobey your CO, not because you fear the repercussions, but because you know that there is no other way. There must only be one plan. Similarly in a kingdom, I may want to run 0 thieves, or 120 DPA, but if my leadership tells me to run 20 DPA and 2 tpa I do it. Why? Because if I don't, there won't be a cohesive plan, and that'll create a point of weakness which the enemy kingdom can exploit. If I want to run prop ops for honour while my leadership gives me a nightstrike target, running my prop ops anyway would be irresponsible, selfish, and ergo morally wrong. If my leadership tells the kingdom to chain the monarch and I want to max gain, I do what the leadership says regardless. That is the only way a kingdom in Utopia can function effectively, and that is the only way the military can function effectively.

    You bring up examples of defection, which is not in the general aim of the military, and thus your example is irrelevant. Notice how in my first post, I said it was morally wrong. By subverting orders, you threaten every man in your platoon, every man in your kingdom, when in fact there is a much easier way to resolve differences, in a way that no one would come to further harm.

    I welcome dissent. Dissent is integral for the leadership to form a solid plan, generally with popular support. But when the leadership makes a decision, I expect everyone to sit down, shut up, and do as told. As I've shown above, there can be no other way.

  14. #74
    Postaholic Hallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjTeddySpin View Post
    Its just a difference between the mindset of a Top KD and someone who has never played in one. I agree that it can be harsh at times, but its been proven that Facism > Democracy. Look at the ranks if you have time, thats how the top KDs does things so if you don't like it, don't be part of it.

    You can think that your political ideals are correct, but we are talking about efficiency and what works here.

    I am not refering to Grace but as a general point of view, I would think that how the leadership/council bring their message forward is also very important. I know of this ef-up monarch in one of the top KD i was in being so hot-tempered he just keeps *****ing about every single thing, it just makes you want to bash him up or get back at him. For the player, you don't care if you screw his age. For the monarch, you sow what you reap. The top KD I was in looks pretty lousy now, though still in chart.


    To try and clean up this big mess I've made... let me explain.
    I feel the way Grime acted was perfectly normal... and thats why I support him.

    All of this explanation of what fascism is, how it works... the point is simply to get you all to understand something that many keep indicating that they do not. My alternative of a "pseudo-democracy", while it does not have many of the added benefits of fascism, does allow people to be easily admitted into a KD... while fascism inherently resists their admittance from both the KD and the individual admitted.

    And those are truths! I can keep explaining on and on, exposing the flaws in your logic or explaining your misconceptions... and you STILL WON'T GET IT.


    People will persist in the idea that what Grime did is unacceptable BECAUSE THEY'RE CONDITIONED TO! And I can issue argument against argument compounding upon how it is exactly what will happen, yet they will continue to refute it because, they're conditioned to!

    *err, make a note. This doesn't mean what he did wasn't bad... but the severity of the backlash indicates a very high level of intolerance.*

    It's a really awesome situation. My extensive repertoire against your simple conditioning... which will win out... well, we both know that one.



    But, if you want me to say "fascism is okay, because people... secretly... want to be fascists" then you will not get it. I know that the efficiency of a fascist society cannot be competed with, but I also know of the people that it hurts, and how unstable it actually is. I know that my proposed pseudo-democracy has inherent flaws... and I know that said pseudo-democracy is just as likely to revert back to fascism. There's not much you can actually do.

    But, oh well... this has been fun!
    Last edited by Hallo; 16-04-2010 at 05:26.
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  15. #75
    Postaholic Hallo's Avatar
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    Oh bother!

    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    In the military, you don't disobey your CO, not because you fear the repercussions,
    Please re-read said quote.
    I clearly specified that Dictatorship and Fascism are NOT the same system. I explained the differences between the two, and I explained what would happen if the Military were a Dictatorship. There is no reason you should be making this sort of response.


    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    but because you know that there is no other way. There must only be one plan. Similarly in a kingdom, I may want to run 0 thieves, or 120 DPA, but if my leadership tells me to run 20 DPA and 2 tpa I do it. Why? Because if I don't, there won't be a cohesive plan, and that'll create a point of weakness which the enemy kingdom can exploit. If I want to run prop ops for honour while my leadership gives me a nightstrike target, running my prop ops anyway would be irresponsible, selfish, and ergo morally wrong. If my leadership tells the kingdom to chain the monarch and I want to max gain, I do what the leadership says regardless. That is the only way a kingdom in Utopia can function effectively, and that is the only way the military can function effectively.
    The efficiency of fascism doesn't come from the "chain of command", if you'd take a gander at what I wrote, you'd understand that. It comes from the fact that all these people are acting as one. The whole "Hive Mind" effect, it makes it so they do your orders before you even give them.

    This is actually one of the most difficult things to explain... but they know what you expect of them, and they know how to do it... such that you only need say "destroy that province" and all the cogs and gears will start turning and within a matter of moments said province will be destroyed. You don't need to assign task-leaders, you don't need to tell anyone what to do... they all know what to do, and they do it... very systematically. The only thing you need to do is sit there and watch it happen, and give praise where praise is warranted. You really have to see it from the outside to understand how beautiful it really is.


    A small note, you're attempting to portray "the individual" as an inherently selfish person. But the fact is that the monarch is not all knowing... "the individual" may actually know better than the monarch. Lets take that order to "destroy that province"... what do you imagine would happen if they failed to destroy it? They'd get all gloomy and ask the monarch what they did wrong. But an individual may actually have noticed an inherent flaw with the plan and devised a plan, that if were implemented, said province would have been destroyed.



    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    You bring up examples of defection, which is not in the general aim of the military, and thus your example is irrelevant.
    I offered that example along side a second example to illustrate differences. I'll skip all the jabber and get to the point.

    Fascism: Hive Mind, Has a "Figure Head" Leader, Persists Without Leader Due to Unionization
    Dictatorship: Isolating, Has a Strong Leader, Can Fall Apart If People Unionize


    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    Notice how in my first post, I said it was morally wrong.
    Which is why I thought that, instead of simply raving about it, you'd agree that the platoon would reject said leader and establish a new one. It really is very simple and you're just restating what I had said.


    Quote Originally Posted by raviy View Post
    I welcome dissent. Dissent is integral for the leadership to form a solid plan, generally with popular support.
    But when the leadership makes a decision, I expect everyone to sit down, shut up, and do as told.
    As I've shown above, there can be no other way.
    Then you're... not fascist. Not completely anyways. You're actually following the pseudo-democracy I had proposed.
    where there is dissent, there is individualism. Thats is the entire point of letting people express their views.

    But, if this is a pseudo-permittance where you "say" you tolerate it, but really don't care and will tell said person to shut up if "it is not the right time" then allowing people to voice their dissent is actually a meaningless gesture that makes you far closer to an authoritarian dictator...


    w/e really...


    Wow...

    I think I broke a personal record for sheer amount of text written over a singular point "one after another"
    Last edited by Hallo; 16-04-2010 at 06:38.
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