"And your second argument is a strawman."
seriously, stop stealing my sauce!
"finally, 97% (yes, i made that statistic up too!) of last ages posts said dwarf artisan was the best combo ever. Ive said it before, and i'll probably say it again - common beliefs are not always true :D "
dwarf art is the best combo.
Well in fact, we wont lose a tun of stealth to CB attacker after all, here is what we will see basically for a 300000 NW :
mod off : 50000 (5000 lites)
Mod def: 110000 (16000 def)
thieves: 8000
Except halfling suiciders of course since we will NEVER know for all age long what they have.
Obviously it gonna be the funniest age of all Utopia era. CB/CE thievery op and halflings is what the game need.
When I think some people give advices as stupid as :
- Fix the bug first, before making radical changes whom both effect/ and utility are far to be obvious.
- Underpower Dwarves a little, overpower DarkElfe a little, and why not, gnomes, AND FIX THE BUGS. (Seriously, current numbers of DE lites, lol)
- When you ask advice to a community and when 80% of the community say" no, thank you", maybe you could reconsider ...or quit ask us advices.
Come on dear developers, we had to fight Mehul long years because he dint want to hear our request of have right to trade provo, invit provo, babysit provo. Who was right eventually ? Him or the community ?
You give us our fun tool, make it the way we like it and everybody will take profit of it.
Why does everyone tear their hair out and cry when any sort of change is announced?!
We now have intel gathering purely in the hands of spies & thieves....hmmm, that sounds kinda logical doesn’t it? Leave the mages to blast, charm and curse things, that's their proper role anyway!
The changes will obviously force thieves to be slightly less combative and slightly more intel-orientated, but any attacker worth his salt will still be able to get basic intel for themselves - and it will prob be easier to do than having to run both a reasonable TPA and a reasonable WPA and fannying around getting CBs and SoMs in the current way.
Obviously pure or heavy mages will suffer, as it will be even more difficult for them to justify their value to the Kd. I expect people with a strong leaning towards x/M are crapping themselves, ha ha ha ha!! Its about time you time wasters got yourselves a proper job. Stop whining in these forums and learn to attack!
They shouldn't craft the game around external tools.the guys that sort out angel for us and then when pimp and the other pimp like sites that exists, it screws them all up as well.
Its up to the external tools to keep up with the changes. If they can't, then they are badly designed with crap code and doomed to intermitent failures and unsatisfied users anyways.
And besides, Pimp has not been very reliable since Molesquirrel left, change or no change. We are currently developping other means to share intel in order to adapt to this reality.
Anyways, concerning the changes, I see a good side to it.
As monarch, I sometimes find it very convenient to gather my own intel on a few provinces as I'm fleshing out the orders.
Right now, this is hard because I need both high thievery and high magic depending on the target (some have crazy magic defense and some have crazy thievery defense).
Outside chains, I sometimes have to wait 15-20 minutes to get the intel I need (currently am a/t so I have to wait for a/ms to get a CBs on high WPA targets).
With this change, the monarch can play a/t and gather all the intel he needs himself which allows him to swiftly update orders and go back to his business without having to wait for intel. If he needs so much intel that he runs out of stealth, he probably needed assist anyways, but if he needs intel on a few targets, then he can quickly get it without assist which is best.
Sure, it will mean that the monarch will have to save a good supply of stealth to gather intel (and a few monarchs will stumble on this initially), but people learn.
The only change I'd like added to this is maybe make failed intel gathering ops waste only 1% stealth (instead of 2% in wars) and it would be perfect.
Last edited by Magn; 18-05-2010 at 17:06.
***********************************Originally Posted by Bishop
Re: UD
Activity wins wars - armies in/armies out
Have you ever been in a war, Bishop?
Then you know armies in/armies out is the order of the day. How long's the average war? 72 hours? Then what happens? You get a 24 - 48 freeze period to recover. Why? Becuz your forces are depleted. You need money, you need time to replace your armies and buildings.
Most kingdoms give it three days after this to build up becuz their forces are still depleted.
This is UD - day in/day out. They must attack. They can't leave their leets at home. They may get free leets but they have to earn them. They don't come that easy. Unlike other races, they do not enjoy the luxury of sitting idle. They cannot buy their leets. Kill their economy and you kill undeads. The majority of the people played UD that age. Half of them quit. It was unplayable. Kill the economy, you kill the race.
------------------
Not quite sure what you mean by strawman. If I have to do all my cb's & all my soms from stealth, stealth left for ops will be minimized. With 2 tpa & 2 wpa it can take 6 to 8 tries before I get a cb or som depending on how packed the guy I'm intelling is. Twice the intel is needed now.
There will be less stealth left for ops.
How can intel be the same difficulty but not be difficult? It is difficult. Some guys are really hard even with 3 wpa/tpa. If they're packed and you have low stealth or mana your attack is blown if it all bounces out. So now, you have to do cb and som from stealth .. forget it. How can it not be hard if it's the same degree of difficulty as now? We don't want it easier. Getting intel is part of the challenge of the game. It nerfs thieves becuz it makes them waste their intel on cb's. It nerfs mage because it makes them carry more thieves in self defense as well as having thievery their only source of intel.
Couple of people suggested make the change but also leave cb's and ce's in mystics and give people the option. Damne fine idea! This would be a boon.
Finally, "common beliefs are not always true".
Are they 97% true, perhaps?
Truism (Tru"ism) (?), n.
[From True.]
An undoubted or self-evident truth; a statement which is pliantly true; a proposition needing no proof or argument; -- opposed to falsism. "Trifling truisms clothed in great, swelling words." J. P. Smith.
***********************
@ Magn ........ What if monarchs don't want to be an intel gatherer. Most monarchs are among the most powerful a/m ~ a/t in the kingdom. Now the stealth that normally would have gone
to stealing money for the draggy in hostile, on ops and spells in war is wasted on intel? What if monarchs don't want to be a/t?
Last edited by Prince Blood; 18-05-2010 at 17:35.
Outwit! .. Outlast! .. Outplay!
Ohh the irony...
Just to add to the weight of numbers, in my humble opinion you are fixing something that is NOT broken (one of the few things...), this is a horrible misallocation of development time, PLEASE do NOT do it.
I could go on and on but much has been said already to reiterate those points, and I'd get banned anyway.
@Prince Blood or w/e :P
Kinda funny stuff, i remember running a kd with 19 Undeads that age and... finishing top 20 for NW/land and top 15 for honor.... we had 11 wars and Undeads were highly playable imo.
such a interesting change for the new age ...... bleh
Anything else ?
FLATLINERS TLG KLA
Aren't Undeads massively off-topic? :-\
On topic, it would also be good if all these thievery intel ops were immune to WTs, otherwise one target with WTs will take most of your stealth.
Better still would be keeping CB and CE as magic ops, of course, but I suspect the tide of opinion on that one is fairly clear anyway!
Keep CB a magic operation and make it show 100% accurate resources, OME and DME.
Keep CE a magic operation but make it harder to cast. The result of the spell can divulge multiple players who made annon attacks. (Kinda how Mystic Vortex has the chance to remove random spells, It will divulge random annons)
Have Spy on Throne display 100% accurate military figures but randomised resources, OME and DME.
Have Snatch News display the same as the CE of old
This will make it useful for kingdoms to have A/T's and A/M's. I can see several different kingdom styles coming out of this suggestion.
Great. Lets just screw over thieves even more than they already were :/
Another race? Why? Not just that, but one that'll be probably about identical to gnomes! Or is gnome just being renamed halfling?
WHY do they have to split up the thief ops like they did the spells? Its already annoying enough the spell page was split into 3-4 categories (one which is a SEPARATE PAGE for self spells...) Just leave them as they are! And it would be nice if spells could just go back to a single page, one list not broken up into 4 separate categories.
You don't need more espionage ops... Now instead of attackers mass casting for a CB, they'll do the same with Thief CB.. and thieves have to waste stealth getting any intel :/
The ONLY half-good thing I think (and its only mentioned as a side-note) is that CB might get some slight randomization. Eventually. Stupid. CB should be exact but not include mods. IE display raw off/def. Make SoM/Survey ~95% accurate and require them with the CB for people to get mod numbers. That would greatly boost the need for TM related actions.
Also, how do you randomize a CE? make the acre changes a bit off? Misspell some province names? Make kd places off by a number or two?
As to the ease of intel... BUGS fix! Im a gnome rogue, I have 3.5 raw wpa, with 90% sci. Yet I always have trouble getting a CB of dwarves (usually 3-4 tries. sometimes more, sometimes less) and yet I almost never have trouble getting it for DEs! And I know every one I've tried isnt Dwarf mystics and DE attackers, so why this fail/success ratio?
Not a good idea... Its just splitting the CB into two seperate ops and requiring both. SoM should already cover ME, even though its only use now is to check on elites out. Instead of SoT just make SoM more accurate, as I mentioned above. Though I do like the idea of CE revealing anons also.
Last edited by kyouteki; 18-05-2010 at 19:21.
Maybe because since I start to play age 10 I knowmore or less what i am talking of ... For example, it's not pure Mages (who never existed by the way) who complains.
Those complaining are precisly attackers, you see ? And good thieves, too.
I think the complaints aren't that they are changing it simply because they are changing it, proxynick, but because they claim to be changing it to strengthen thievery, but all signs point to a weakening of thievery. This doesn't change the fact, however, that the only way this is going to strengthen thievery is with game mechanic changes (like having stealth take up less per success/fail for all intelligence, without them introducing bugs that will take over 9000 hours to fix, if at all).
This suggestion by the devs has the opposite effect they are trying to create, which is why it is a bad idea. We have offered suggestions to make thievery better without changing the intelligence gathering system (as we, the major player base that use said intelligence, have stated with explanations, that thievery isn't weak because of their lack of gathering cbs and ces).
I don't mind that Brian_ wants to change something. I do mind that he wants to change something without correcting past mistakes (the bugs that have been in existence in the game since closed alpha). We would rather have a game be more functional /before/ adding new features that may potentially break the game. We want the game playable and enjoyable. This suggestion has every opportunity to do the opposite of what we want, and very few opportunities to make the game more enjoyable for us (at most, it will make it the same amount enjoyable, most expectantly it will make the game more tedious). This is why we protest, this is why we haet this idea. Seemingly no benefits, and many detriments. There has been no explanation by Brian_ how this new system will benefit us when we pressed. He simply said "This will happen." This puts none of us at ease, and further alienates the devs from the community that the devs rely on to make the game a success.
Last edited by Nuriho; 18-05-2010 at 20:04. Reason: spelling
There has been numerous of brilliant players and some of the most dedicated players in the game that has replied to this thread. They said it is a bad idea. These people really know what they are talking about. They are this game ffs! We are the game!
I 100% agree that this is a bad idea and so does my entire KD i can assure you that. But why listen to the people that still plays this game....
~ S i m i a n s crew
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