The Left's Collapse

[Rockie Cantais]

What is the Left? It depends on what you are measuring our current political environment by for starters. I prefer to us the American ruler or left is big government and anarchy on the Right. If you use socialism on one end and fascism on the other will your limiting you view just to which type of big government you like. Then we can add in social left and right, Conservatism Vs Liberalism but it seems we have a political ruler for those two names also. Go to another part of the world and views change also and it seems people have other rulers that they ,measure things by also.
Principles! now there is something you can hang your hat on that people will understand no matter where you are. You are either for it, against it or have no opinion about it. O' my, how tyrants hate that, propaganda has less of on affect if you say 'I know what I stand for and it is very clear to me.'

So there the first part is done, before you can say the Left is under collapse you have to define what the left is to you. There is a Right also for if there is a Left there has to be an opposite Right? yes/no? and if no then tell me how! Funny, the Progressives/Liberals was screaming that Conservationism was dead at the end of G. Bush run as president, lol. SO, don't even bother with the argument there is no left right left right! I understand that point and agree if we were using no measuring ruler other than principles. Guess what, measuring rulers on where people stand will be done anyway!

So with that out of the way is the Left collapsing in Europe? After Nov, 4 2010 we will now in America!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124545309071432827.html

[Magn]

I'll take an unscrupulous, but pragmatic man over one with the wrong set of principles any day.

Hitler was a very principled man. He has some very strong beliefs about his country and he tried to go all the way with these beliefs.

Having beliefs by itself, does not make an individual more valuable if what he believes in is crap.

It is an individual's responsability to constantly re-examine his high level beliefs and ask himself how well it fulfills his core beliefs. Imo, the only beliefs worth a grain of salt are a preciousness of life, a want for widespread propesperity and happiness.

All other "beliefs" are only worth something to the extent that they further that core belief and should be religously re-examined to ensure that it is consistently the case.

I say that the right/left is a meaningless argument, because no system is pure left or pure right (even Russia at the height of communism has some right in it). You always operate in shades of gray with left/right so why are you gonna debate which shade of gray is better by using absolutes? Thats stupid.

Left/right is not a valid principle. Neither is a guarantee is the core principles (ie, life, widesreap prosperity, happiness) I described earlier. Someone who throws a policy away as being too left or too right without examining how the policy will help fulfill core principles is missing the point.

[Rockie Cantais]

I'll take an unscrupulous, but pragmatic man over one with the wrong set of principles any day.

Hitler was a very principled man. He has some very strong beliefs about his country and he tried to go all the way with these beliefs.

Putting a twisted twist on the principles aren't you? I say if any normal person placed their principles up against Hitlers it would be like looking at Day and Night. Hitler was unscrupulous and pragmatic which make me think you need to rethink that. What say the rest of you would you put your principles up against Hitlers?

Having beliefs by itself, does not make an individual more valuable if what he believes in is crap.

Yep! never said its a silver bullet but when you compare principles up against principle you know where everyone stands. Hitler will do nicely as an example.

It is an individual's responsability to constantly re-examine his high level beliefs and ask himself how well it fulfills his core beliefs. Imo, the only beliefs worth a grain of salt are a preciousness of life, a want for widespread propesperity and happiness.

Might be hope for you yet!

All other "beliefs" are only worth something to the extent that they further that core belief and should be religously re-examined to ensure that it is consistently the case.

Question with boldness, question on then.

I say that the right/left is a meaningless argument, because no system is pure left or pure right (even Russia at the height of communism has some right in it). You always operate in shades of gray with left/right so why are you gonna debate which shade of gray is better by using absolutes? Thats stupid.

Yep, you have a point and we are back to principles then aren't we? Unless you have a simple specific example for left and right - Like- left=big government and right=no government.

Left/right is not a valid principle. Neither is a guarantee is the core principles (ie, life, widesreap prosperity, happiness) I described earlier. Someone who throws a policy away as being too left or too right without examining how the policy will help fulfill core principles is missing the point.

Yet, we use these examples of left and right with wild abandonment especially the media and our political leaders the world over. Like I said originally it all depends on how you define right/left. Matter of fact what one words mean in America will mean something different in Europe not to mention Asia etc...


So where does that leave us? Back to what our principle's are!

Is Socialism going to collapse in Europe? If it does, doesn't mean you'll get a Democracy or Republic now does it?

[John Snowstorm]

epic. second line of first reply - straight to godwins law.

conversation over.

[Magn]

epic. second line of first reply - straight to godwins law.

conversation over.

Fair enough, I took the first example that came to mind and it was somewhat unimaginative.

I could have said that the terrorists who blew themselves with the planes in 9/11 were very principled and the example would have been equally valid.

Putting a twisted twist on the principles aren't you? I say if any normal person placed their principles up against Hitlers it would be like looking at Day and Night. Hitler was unscrupulous and pragmatic which make me think you need to rethink that. What say the rest of you would you put your principles up against Hitlers?

If he had been unscrupulously pragmatic, he would have halter his invasion at Russia while he finished off England and he would have simply expelled the Jews and acquired their possessions instead of exterminating them.

From what I understood from my history teachers, he was quite clear about his views in Mein Kampft and what he did later on was quite in line with those writings.

If you delve a bit in his history, you'll see that he had a very strong opinion on a lot of matters. Very strong temperament.

What he believed in was extremely evil, but these were his beliefs nonetheless and he stuck to them.

Yep! never said its a silver bullet but when you compare principles up against principle you know where everyone stands. Hitler will do nicely as an example.

Yes, the pathological need to classify people into neatly understood boxes of ideological portfolios.

They do that a lot with celebrities in particular.

People are not fond of paradoxes.

Yet, we use these examples of left and right with wild abandonment especially the media and our political leaders the world over. Like I said originally it all depends on how you define right/left.

Yes, those well rehearsed ideological boxes are very convenient to get a point accross.

People understand them.

People who are in favor of public medicare should also be in favor of everything else that is considered 'socialist' because they are neatly classified in that box right?

EDIT: Merged rebutal to other post in the first post instead of creating a second one.

[Rockie Cantais]

Moving on lets talk about what causing the economic collapse of Europe. Floor is open!

I say its Socialism but I give the floor up so someone can defend it and/or give their views first!

[Rockie Cantais]

Yeah, I see I was talking to the wall! LOL

Your talking in circles dude and saying the same thing only in a different ways!

[Magn]

Yeah, I see I was talking to the wall! LOL

Your talking in circles dude and saying the same thing only in a different ways!

I'll say it in as many ways as I need for it to get through.

If you don't like to hear it, don't bring the left-right argument. Its kinda repetitive and circular (ie, I don't like the left because its left and blablablablabla and it will lead to communism like there was in Russia and blablablablabla, we got it).

[Rockie Cantais]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuG...eature=related


Why not talk about the collapse of Europe?

[Magn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuG...eature=related

Well, I watched the first half and can say the guy is clearly wrong about something.

While left means more government regulations and right means less (the extremes being having a society like and ant colony or anarchy), it doesn't specify anything about the size of the government.

While left tend to increases the size of the ruling body (more regulations often requires a bigger government to regulate), it isn't an absolute rule (an inept and corrupt government with few regulations might still require a great deal of manpower to enforce them for example).

Why not talk about the collapse of Europe?

What collapse are you refering to exactly?

I know Greece is not faring so hot, but I wasn't aware that the rest of the EU was in greater economic trouble than the US for example.

If your intent is to make a correlation between being more "socialist" and faring less well economically, Canada is more of a socialist country than the US in general, but it didn't have to bailout its banking system...

[Rockie Cantais]

Well, I watched the first half and can say the guy is clearly wrong about something.

While left means more government regulations and right means less (the extremes being having a society like and ant colony or anarchy), it doesn't specify anything about the size of the government.

Its not about the actual size but the amount of government control and power over the individual.

While left tend to increases the size of the ruling body (more regulations often requires a bigger government to regulate), it isn't an absolute rule (an inept and corrupt government with few regulations might still require a great deal of manpower to enforce them for example).

Think of it like this: Why do you want to regulate big corporations? Some fear the power they would obtain and abuse it. That concept also applies to Government, which if it gains too much power, it become corrupt and too powerful. The Concept of the Representative Government and the American Constitution is to Regulate the Government not give the individual rights. The Bill of Rights were added for that purpose. Don't think in terms of size but of power over the indivdual.

What collapse are you refering to exactly?

I know Greece is not faring so hot, but I wasn't aware that the rest of the EU was in greater economic trouble than the US for example.

If your intent is to make a correlation between being more "socialist" and faring less well economically, Canada is more of a socialist country than the US in general, but it didn't have to bailout its banking system...

EU is in decline and you are right too soon to say its a collapse. Other nations in the EU "are not/ may not" be that far behind Greece and we'll soon see if they pull it out. Canada has a much smaller and less diverse society than America and to be honest I would have to some research on Canada before I commented on it.

The original article I posted pointed a few things out about Europe. Which I am going to read again before going on. I do remember it talked about the failure of the left. Which we can just agree to disagree on the definition for now. The title of the article is the same as this thread.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124545309071432827.html

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-packages.html

To be honest I see news articles like this a lot more of lately and to tell the truth its hard to make heads or tails out of what is what in Europe. Hard enough time figuring on my own country.

Reread the article and while its not saying the left is collapsing its is talking of a decline of it, EU only they pointed out! LOL I have turned off my rhetoric to see if anyone in the EU can shed some light on the matter.

[Rockie Cantais]

LOL,

Enough, we can go around in circles until the world ends! I'm just happy to say that we agree that we need an educated society who wants to put the good of the society first. What form of government they pick is up to that each individual group. Trust me I have no desire to tell anyone country how they need to run their government.

I get the feeling that the world think all Americans want is to rule the world! lol. Some might, to the tell the truth most of us are sick and tired of getting pulled into other peoples fights all the time. A lot of us don't like or trust government and a World Government makes us sick! Just some other A$$ to tell us what to do! Obama, is an American Citizen but he does not understand its people and is falling flat on his face for it. He would have been a better European leader! LOL. SO, I think we should bring all our troops home and just let the world figure its own problems out! Unless you ask for it no more military aid and even if you ask I think we still should say NO! Enough Americans have died for the worlds freedom, time for you to pay for it or lose it! Unless you fight for it you never understand the feeling for it! This idea is growing!

[Rockie Cantais]

Enough Americans have died for the worlds freedom, time for you to pay for it or lose it! Unless you fight for it you never understand the feeling for it! This idea is growing!

Don't get me wrong! I fully understand the sacrifice other nations have make for their own freedom! Not the point I was trying to make. We Americans are getting tired of our boys dying for other people who then seems that they don't want us us! We need to avoid these alliances that are not in line with our principles! I'm starting to see what the Libertarians point of view is, here in America!

[Luc]

I get the feeling that the world think all Americans want is to rule the world! lol. Some might, to the tell the truth most of us are sick and tired of getting pulled into other peoples fights all the time. A lot of us don't like or trust government and a World Government makes us sick! Just some other A$$ to tell us what to do! Obama, is an American Citizen but he does not understand its people and is falling flat on his face for it. He would have been a better European leader! LOL. SO, I think we should bring all our troops home and just let the world figure its own problems out! Unless you ask for it no more military aid and even if you ask I think we still should say NO! Enough Americans have died for the worlds freedom, time for you to pay for it or lose it! Unless you fight for it you never understand the feeling for it! This idea is growing!

This is as far as I got before I realized this was a joke thread.

Lots of people around the world despise Americans, and the above display of naivety is a great example of why. Do you seriously think that the rest of the world asked you to participate in all those wars? Did anyone come ask you to please go into Iraq? On the contrary, most of the world did not want that to happen unless WMD's were found, and of course they never were. I actually think it's a great thing that Saddam is gone, but I would never be so naive as to believe that you removed him for anything other than self interest. This whole "fighting for freedom" is just bull**** propaganda. The arrogance in thinking your view is right and should be forced upon everybody else is what's making people hate you so much. That you also have no clue about Europe and still use it in your examples all the time just make things worse.

Fighting for the world's freedom? Give me a break. Do you really think the rest of the world can accomplish nothing on their own? Most Europeans are very grateful for the help during the world wars, but again, stop being so naive to believe that the US did it just to be nice. It was in your own self interest to get involved, and it didn't happen until you couldn't refuse. I've got nothing against that behavior at all, it's pragmatic and it makes sense to do what you think is best for your own people. But you really need to get a grip and understand that you're not the messiah helping people out of the goodness of your hearts. The thread starter needs to open his eyes before he tries to flash his political knowledge (which is lacking) and opinions (which are based on narrow mindedness).

No disrespect meant to the US and their armed forces. I'm not a USA hater and am actually grateful for a lot of what you've done. But the kind of arrogance displayed by the thread starter really pisses me off, and let's just say he's not the only one who acts like that.

You can never convince those who have already made up their minds. I rest my case on the above statements.

It's always fun when people spew out things that are so obviously much more suited to be used against themselves than others.

[Rockie Cantais]

This is as far as I got before I realized this was a joke thread.

NO not really but it is intended to shock you.

Lots of people around the world despise Americans, and the above display of naivety is a great example of why. Do you seriously think that the rest of the world asked you to participate in all those wars? Did anyone come ask you to please go into Iraq? On the contrary, most of the world did not want that to happen unless WMD's were found, and of course they never were. I actually think it's a great thing that Saddam is gone, but I would never be so naive as to believe that you removed him for anything other than self interest. This whole "fighting for freedom" is just bull**** propaganda. The arrogance in thinking your view is right and should be forced upon everybody else is what's making people hate you so much. That you also have no clue about Europe and still use it in your examples all the time just make things worse..

No they did not ask us and a lot of us Americans think we should just let the world blow itself to hell while we sit back and let you! I could care less if you hate or love us! I think its time we pull our troops out of Europe as we pull out of Iraq.

Fighting for the world's freedom? Give me a break. Do you really think the rest of the world can accomplish nothing on their own? Most Europeans are very grateful for the help during the world wars, but again, stop being so naive to believe that the US did it just to be nice. It was in your own self interest to get involved, and it didn't happen until you couldn't refuse. I've got nothing against that behavior at all, it's pragmatic and it makes sense to do what you think is best for your own people. But you really need to get a grip and understand that you're not the messiah helping people out of the goodness of your hearts. The thread starter needs to open his eyes before he tries to flash his political knowledge (which is lacking) and opinions (which are based on narrow mindedness).

I see I hit the right button!

Like I said, I think we Americans need pull the majortiy of our troops back home and the let the world have at it! Your right about one thing America First!!!

No disrespect meant to the US and their armed forces. I'm not a USA hater and am actually grateful for a lot of what you've done. But the kind of arrogance displayed by the thread starter really pisses me off, and let's just say he's not the only one who acts like that.

Your too kind!

I make no apology.

It's always fun when people spew out things that are so obviously much more suited to be used against themselves than others.

Hello, I'm still here!!!