The Left's Collapse

[Rockie Cantais]

Enough Americans have died for the worlds freedom, time for you to pay for it or lose it! Unless you fight for it you never understand the feeling for it! This idea is growing!

Don't get me wrong! I fully understand the sacrifice other nations have make for their own freedom! Not the point I was trying to make. We Americans are getting tired of our boys dying for other people who then seems that they don't want us us! We need to avoid these alliances that are not in line with our principles! I'm starting to see what the Libertarians point of view is, here in America!

[Rockie Cantais]

People have such contradictory opinions on many things that some people are bound not to get their way.

As long as the population is kept open-minded, legislations will be made to give as much freedom as possible.

NO,NO,NO, the Legislators are to Represent the people not what they think is best!

Then, trust the education system to produce a populace that can make enlightened decisions by iteself in general.

Depends on what you are teaching!

I get the whole elitist idea suggested by Plato's Republic (you seem to be an ardent believer that you know what a Republic is all about, surely you must have read his work right?) and its ideas have merits in a civilisation where the masses are not well educated, but as the general amount of knowledge tend to spread, so should political power.

I had some Liberal Professor bore me to death with it! Got it backwards, as your population grows in knowledge the central government needs to lose power; for problems can be solved at the local government.

Whether you feel that the general populace of your country (the US) is enlightened enough to make sound political decisions is another matter entirely.

Doesn't matter, people have the Right to Liberty and self guidance who are we to judge if they are enlightened enough?

I certainly have such an opinion of my own country.

What type of government y'all have is up to the Canadians. Its wrong of us Americans to tell the world how to run their own country. Blame our meddling on the Progressives!

Well, if you can have the constitution amended, then you recognise that it is fallible and not the final authority on political matters, no? Rather, those that have the power to amened the constitution are...

Dude, you make me want to run my head into the wall!!!

The Constitution is to regulate our government to break up the powers so that no one branch of it gains full control. We have a process to amend it but it takes time and a popular movement. I doubt most people outside of America really don't understand the long process it took to create our Constitution. The book a '5,000 Year Leap' explains the principles that it is based on. Not that is the only book either and keep in mind the Liberals/Progressives and some in the Democrat Party would howl at my words!

[angevin]

This topic seems a bit pointless. How can the 'Left' ever collapse? There will always be people with more liberal ideologies than others. Just like there will always be people who are more conservative.

[Rockie Cantais]

This topic seems a bit pointless. How can the 'Left' ever collapse? There will always be people with more liberal ideologies than others. Just like there will always be people who are more conservative.

Think in terms of, sifting of power. Right now its leaning toward socialism which is government control by elites. The people should be on top and the central government should be on the bottom. Just turn the triangle of government upside down and you get a Representative Republic. Your constitution should be looked at a Law that regulate your central government allowing the people more freedom. With out a strong moral foundation you may find this impossible, might be the problem with the EU?

[Magn]

NO,NO,NO, the Legislators are to Represent the people not what they think is best!

Represent the people = represent the people's interests.

The people's interests are bound to clash. You have to cut somewhere.

Depends on what you are teaching!

I agree. What is being taught at school is the object of much contention.

Its a very important topic and not enough emphasis is put on it imho. I wish that there was more overall awareness and interest about school curriculums as I firmly believe that it can make or break a democratic society.

There is also a matter of accessibility, if school is prohibitively expensive or if there is a strong pressure for students to enter the workforce prematurely to support their family for example.

I had some Liberal Professor bore me to death with it! Got it backwards, as your population grows in knowledge the central government needs to lose power; for problems can be solved at the local government.

Yes and no. Some ressources are better administered locally and some ressources are better administered by a central authority.

Where you cut is a complex topic in itself that I won't delve into.

But thats not what I was refering to.

What I meant is that as a population's overall amount of knowledge grow, it can afford to have a more direct control on political decisions.

At one extreme, you have a mostly ignorant populace which can barely (if at all) be trusted with electing a ruler.

At the other extreme, you have an extremely knowledgeable society where every citizen was taught a good base (history, philosophy, geography, languages, logic, etc) and where the vast majority hold at least a college degree and votes directly on a lot of matters that are currently delegated to representatives.

The later is, imho, what every democratic society should strive to.

I had some Liberal Professor bore me to death with it! Got it backwards, as your population grows in knowledge the central government needs to lose power; for problems can be solved at the local government.

Well, that may be, but if a populace is composed of a bunch of rednecks or brainwashed fanatics (not pointing a finger at anyone in particular here, just giving an example to make a point), then democracy doesn't have as strong a meaning as the populace will be easily swayed and manipulated by a small ruling elite.

Dude, you make me want to run my head into the wall!!!

The Constitution is to regulate our government to break up the powers so that no one branch of it gains full control.

So then, we can agree that your constitution is not some kind of magical elexir that will somehow allow you to have a better society while bypassing the democratic process?

Ultimately, what will make or break your country is its people and the decisions they make, not a piece of paper.

[Magn]

Think in terms of, sifting of power. Right now its leaning toward socialism which is government control by elites.

Wrong, socialism simply puts more services in the hands of the government.

Usually, it implies providing citizens with a better safety net at the cost of higher taxes.

It otherwise doesn't put a restriction in the composition of the government (it could be a democracy or a dictature).

With out a strong moral foundation you may find this impossible, might be the problem with the EU?

So you are implying that Europeans are of morally weaker stock than the Americans?

[Rockie Cantais]

Wrong, socialism simply puts more services in the hands of the government.

Usually, it implies providing citizens with a better safety net at the cost of higher taxes.

It otherwise doesn't put a restriction in the composition of the government (it could be a democracy or a dictature).

Not sure I would say it provides a better safety net but otherwise your correct.

So you are implying that Europeans are of morally weaker stock than the Americans?

NO, only they can answer that question. I was only asking, we in America just don't get the Europeans at times.

[Rockie Cantais]

Ultimately, what will make or break your country is its people and the decisions they make, not a piece of paper.

That is a correct statement but that piece of paper is the glue that binds our country. With out it we would have already dissolved into warring states.

[Magn]

Not sure I would say it provides a better safety net but otherwise your correct.

Yes, it provides a better safety net.

Having an accessible education and health care makes a world of difference in the quality of life.

Having good job security and humane working conditions help too.

These a things that a country that considers itself "well off" should have.

NO, only they can answer that question. I was only asking, we in America just don't get the Europeans at times.

Welcome to the club, the rest of the Western world don't get Americans at times (like why you re-elected Bush or how you could eat the bank bailout that was shoved your throat for example... my anger would know no bounds if crap like that happened in my country).

Anyways, how would you possibly like them to answer you? "Yes, we think you Americans are better than us and have much stronger morals?". Is that the answer you were expecting from an European reading your comments? Seriously?

That is a correct statement but that piece of paper is the glue that binds our country. With out it we would have already dissolved into warring states.

If a piece of paper was the only thing holding my country together from disolving into independant warring states, I'd be very afraid. I wouldn't sleep well at night.

[Rockie Cantais]

Yes, it provides a better safety net.

Having an accessible education and health care makes a world of difference in the quality of life.

Having good job security and humane working conditions help too.

These a things that a country that considers itself "well off" should have.

Don't disagree with that but not by big government. As long as you can keep the tax payers out numbering the ones who are on the welfare Canada will do just fine. If its what you want for your government you're more than welcome to it.

Welcome to the club, the rest of the Western world don't get Americans at times (like why you re-elected Bush or how you could eat the bank bailout that was shoved your throat for example... my anger would know no bounds if crap like that happened in my country).

Bush and Obama the same coin just different sides of it! Anger? not even the word that sums it up anymore!

Anyways, how would you possibly like them to answer you? "Yes, we think you Americans are better than us and have much stronger morals?". Is that the answer you were expecting from an European reading your comments? Seriously?

Don't care what they think anymore! After bailing them out of 2 world wars and the cold war its time to cut them loose for good! Don't wish them ill, just this, its time to bring our military home out of Europe. We are sick about hearing of European Socialism!

If a piece of paper was the only thing holding my country together from disolving into independant warring states, I'd be very afraid. I wouldn't sleep well at night.

LOL, its not the paper but the words that it contains and the idea that it holds. We fear its in jeopardy more so than ever before. This will be either our finest hour or our darkest day. Greece we fear is our future! or worse.

[Magn]

Don't disagree with that but not by big government. As long as you can keep the tax payers out numbering the ones who are on the welfare Canada will do just fine. If its what you want for your government you're more than welcome to it.

Yes, there is a fear that if you provide too much of a safety net, people will abuse it.

Believe me, the income of those who collect on welfare (my understanding is that they have enough to pay for rent, groceries and cable, thats about it) is still very low.

At the same time, those who work at minimum wage are covered with the basics necessities (cheap accessible education for their kids, good health coverage, governamental support for their children if they have low income, etc).

People have a strong incentive to work (make more than the basic income described above), but they are not chronically dependent on their job.

If their work is really crap, they can give their boss the finger and go find work somewhere else (or take some time off if they are having a burnout).

And if someone wants to take time off work to start his own business... well, he has more security to do so.

Unions are also pretty strong for the non-specialised workforce.

Overall, the employers are not in as strong a position to dictate whatever the hell they want on their employees.

Bush and Obama the same coin just different sides of it! Anger? not even the word that sums it up anymore!

Well, Obama started your health care reform and wouldn't have started the Iraq mess. Thats something.

Don't care what they think anymore! After bailing them out of 2 world wars and the cold war its time to cut them loose for good! !Don't wish them ill, just this, its time to bring our military home out of Europe.

You do not want to get me started on this topic, trust me.

Suffice it to say that the first world war was started by an emperialistic mindset that was also present in the US at the time (and one could argue is still somewhat present in the minds of its politicians today if not its general populace which forces the government to be fairly creative when trying to find acceptable means to start a war).

The second world war was mostly instigated by Germany (lets not blame the whole of Europe here). I say mostly, because the sanctions imposed on Germany after WW I (which the US and the other victors helped dictate btw) were not fair by any stretch of the imagination and created a fertile ground for resentment in the minds fo the German people.

Overall, in terms of stability, the US was favored by a strong degree homogenousness in their culture (based on the fact that the original colonists came mostly from England and the surrounding area and had a strong assimilative mentality regarding new arrivals from other cultures that followed). Compare that to Europe which has so many different cultures (I don't know the exact number, but its safe to say that Europe has over 15 languages) and there are bounds to be more clashes. Yet, the US still had their little civil war (and bickered a lot as separate colonies prior to the defeat of the French in NA).

The cold war was instigated by USSR (Russia really) AND the US. Frankly, the Russian regime was never a stable thing (it was more of a transiant thing caused by a strong opposition to the preceeding imperialistic regime). Both USSR and the US did some pretty nasty things during that time period that were, imho, unnecessary.

The US could simply have held its ground and wait for the USSR to collapse on its own (which it did).

btw, I think that your country was lessened as a whole by the cold war. The counter-reaction to the Communist regime produced an extreme ideology in the minds many Americans at the times and some of that extremism still echoes in the discourse of some American posters who post in various forums.

LOL, its not the paper but the words that it contains and the idea that it holds. We fear its in jeopardy more so than ever before. This will be either our finest hour or our darkest day. Greece we fear is our future! or worse.

Greece is your future if you let Wall Street base your economy on wild financial speculations and if you don't keep your debt in check.

The whole idea of using money that you do not have (based on the notion that later conditions will be favorable and you'll have the money then) was never a sound one.

[Rockie Cantais]

LOL,

I'll be back when I have more time to debate!

[Rockie Cantais]

Well, Obama started your health care reform and wouldn't have started the Iraq mess. Thats something.

Health Care? LMAO at that monstrosity, 2,000 pages of bull Manure! Obama comes from Chicago Political environment the most corrupt in America! Gangster incorporated! As for Iraq! Obama is a wimp! and the bad boys of the world knows it! The Democrats at the time oppose the Iraq War only for political gains and not for the moral high ground! LOL. Politics is a game not for the faint of heart! Corruptions run deep in America now and it takes a brave man to stand up and give them the finger! Or a really mad population! LOL. NOV. 2, 2010 we will see!

Don't trust what the Drive by Media in America puts out on the air waves! You can if you want to be a drone to the system.

Back to Iraq, Bush did good at winning the war but failed to follow up on the victories! War is Hell, and should not be fought unless you have the Ice Cold water in your veins do what is needed. Bush blinked and dragged it out way too long! You know we don't see any coverage of the war on the media now!!!! Its like its already over! same for Afghanistan!!!!! The Progressive propaganda machine at work again!!!

HAD enough yet America?

You do not want to get me started on this topic, trust me.

My favorite Wars to study!

Suffice it to say that the first world war was started by an emperialistic mindset that was also present in the US at the time (and one could argue is still somewhat present in the minds of its politicians today if not its general populace which forces the government to be fairly creative when trying to find acceptable means to start a war).

No argument there!

The second world war was mostly instigated by Germany (lets not blame the whole of Europe here). I say mostly, because the sanctions imposed on Germany after WW I (which the US and the other victors helped dictate btw) were not fair by any stretch of the imagination and created a fertile ground for resentment in the minds fo the German people.

Woodrow Wilson, Progressive that dragged America into WW1 to aid the European powers and also helped set up the second WW2. It also lead to the collapse of a political system that lead to chaos. Which gave the Third Rich and the nameless one a chance to grab power. Then the rest of Europe went on to appease him and only encouraged him. Leading us to WW2. FDR, another major Progressive lead America into that world war also! Patterns that we may soon repeat!!! Here we sit on a possible world economic collapse and Obama a Radical Progressive in the White House!

Overall, in terms of stability, the US was favored by a strong degree homogenousness in their culture (based on the fact that the original colonists came mostly from England and the surrounding area and had a strong assimilative mentality regarding new arrivals from other cultures that followed). Compare that to Europe which has so many different cultures (I don't know the exact number, but its safe to say that Europe has over 15 languages) and there are bounds to be more clashes. Yet, the US still had their little civil war (and bickered a lot as separate colonies prior to the defeat of the French in NA).

LOL, The key for us is a unifying Culture that takes in all and melting it into one! Our Civil War was due to States Rights! I doubt Europeans could do that melting pot thing.

The cold war was instigated by USSR (Russia really) AND the US. Frankly, the Russian regime was never a stable thing (it was more of a transiant thing caused by a strong opposition to the preceeding imperialistic regime). Both USSR and the US did some pretty nasty things during that time period that were, imho, unnecessary.

No arguments there on some points but without us the Europeans would have folded into the Soviet sphere. War is Hell, Ice Cold water is needed in your veins to win!

The US could simply have held its ground and wait for the USSR to collapse on its own (which it did).

Regan pushed them over the edge and won it! Otherwise it would have dragged on.

btw, I think that your country was lessened as a whole by the cold war. The counter-reaction to the Communist regime produced an extreme ideology in the minds many Americans at the times and some of that extremism still echoes in the discourse of some American posters who post in various forums.

Extreme ideology? LOL. What I call Socialism and its ilk!

Greece is your future if you let Wall Street base your economy on wild financial speculations and if you don't keep your debt in check.

LMAO, far too late for that we are about to go over the edge!!! http://www.usdebtclock.org/ oops, debt almost the same as our GNP!!! hello Greece! LOL. Either laugh or cry. Thank you Obama!!! 12 tillion of that is your doing!

The whole idea of using money that you do not have (based on the notion that later conditions will be favorable and you'll have the money then) was never a sound one.

Agreed!

[Rockie Cantais]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D0VhS8qXT0

Its in English but funny! Truth hurts at first!

[Fates Warning]

Health Care? LMAO at that monstrosity, 2,000 pages of bull Manure! Obama comes from Chicago Political environment the most corrupt in America! Gangster incorporated! As for Iraq! Obama is a wimp! and the bad boys of the world knows it! The Democrats at the time oppose the Iraq War only for political gains and not for the moral high ground! LOL. Politics is a game not for the faint of heart! Corruptions run deep in America now and it takes a brave man to stand up and give them the finger! Or a really mad population! LOL. NOV. 2, 2010 we will see!

You do realize that we have captured/killed more 'terrorists' in Obamas 1st year in office than we did in Bush's final year in office right? You do know that several terrorist attacks have been stopped under Obama right? How about you do a little research. Back up your claim that Dems only opposed the war for political gain. Dems were called 'Unpatriotic' for voicing opinions against the war. It was only after it was realized that Bush/Cheney lied about the reasons for war that it became a political gain for Dems.

Yes, we did have a mad population. That's why the Republicans lost heavily in the last elections. You are correct that Corruption runs deep in America. Check out Cheney/Haliburton connections. Check out Bush/Bin Ladden family connections. How about Bush/Cheney and torture? Or is it only corruption when a Black Democrat is in the mix for you? How about Drill baby Drill and less regulations the Republicans shout for and then turn around and blame Obama for the Gulf Oil spill when these regulations were lessened by Republicans.

Don't trust what the Drive by Media in America puts out on the air waves! You can if you want to be a drone to the system.

Turn off Fox news then and listen to media outlets outside the US. Don't think you'll like that media much either I guess.

Back to Iraq, Bush did good at winning the war but failed to follow up on the victories! War is Hell, and should not be fought unless you have the Ice Cold water in your veins do what is needed. Bush blinked and dragged it out way too long! You know we don't see any coverage of the war on the media now!!!! Its like its already over! same for Afghanistan!!!!! The Progressive propaganda machine at work again!!!

You mean Bush standing on the Aircraft Carrier with the banner 'Mission Accomplished'? He never won the 'war' that's why we are still at it. You do know it was a war declared on Terrorism right? The same media did the same thing while Bush was in office... do you just have selective memory or something?

WHAT? How much airtime is FOX NEWS giving to the war? How much Airtime is Rush Limbaugh giving to the war? These are NOT progressive media outlets. Yet you blame Progressives? Wow... just wow. By the tone of these media outlets the war against 'terrorism' is the war against Obama instead.

HAD enough yet America?

Yep. Thats why Republicans lost the elections. Americans had had enough of Republicans in office.

Woodrow Wilson, Progressive that dragged America into WW1 to aid the European powers and also helped set up the second WW2. It also lead to the collapse of a political system that lead to chaos. Which gave the Third Rich and the nameless one a chance to grab power. Then the rest of Europe went on to appease him and only encouraged him. Leading us to WW2. FDR, another major Progressive lead America into that world war also! Patterns that we may soon repeat!!! Here we sit on a possible world economic collapse and Obama a Radical Progressive in the White House!

Again. Try to do just a small bit of research first. Here is from wiki:

He based his re-election campaign around the slogan "he kept us out of the war", but U.S. neutrality was challenged in early 1917 when the German government proposed to Mexico a military alliance in a war against the U.S., and began unrestricted submarine warfare, sinking without warning every American merchant ship its submarines could find. Wilson in April 1917 asked Congress to declare war.

Now how about you do a little research on Republican presidents. Start with the Hoover Administration, then maybe Coolidge or Cleveland or even GW Bush. Do you want to go down that road really? Do we want another Republican president after these guys?

I don't quite get what you are trying to say about progressives leading to war??!! How about you look up history and see what Presidents led us into war. Again I think you must need a little help on the subject so here is another link for you. http://www.retiary.org/misc_pages/us..._and_wars.html Being a progressive or not has nothing to do with any of it. It's you grasping at straws for something to ***** about apparently.

LOL, The key for us is a unifying Culture that takes in all and melting it into one! Our Civil War was due to States Rights! I doubt Europeans could do that melting pot thing.

We are NOT a melting pot. We never have been. We have Jewish communities, we have Asian communities, we have Scandinavian communities, we have Irish Communities etc etc etc... the US does not have a 'Culture'. We are a culture of many different nationalities but we are not 1 culture as you claim.

No arguments there on some points but without us the Europeans would have folded into the Soviet sphere. War is Hell, Ice Cold water is needed in your veins to win!

Have you served in the Armed forces? Have you been in a war zone? I have.

Regan pushed them over the edge and won it! Otherwise it would have dragged on.

Not as simple as that. Once again read up on the subject a little more. The end of the cold war had more to do with decades of poor economical and political mismanagement by the Soviets. It is said by some experts that Reagan did not realize just how catastrophic nuclear war would be until he watched the TV movie 'The Day After' as movies were more real to him than real life.

LMAO, far too late for that we are about to go over the edge!!! http://www.usdebtclock.org/ oops, debt almost the same as our GNP!!! hello Greece! LOL. Either laugh or cry. Thank you Obama!!! 12 tillion of that is your doing!

So you want to live in China then I take it? How about you ONCE AGAIN do a little more research on the subject. Here I'll help you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...idential_terms
Now look at the last 5 terms of Republican rule Regan and both Bush's and compare them to the last 5 terms of Democrat rule. All Republican Terms increased the Debt. All the Democrat Terms the debt decreased. Now remember again who was in the white house for the 8 years leading up to the banking collapse AND who started the Banking bail-outs... you guessed it. Republican GW Bush. Yet you blame Obama who is just barely past his first year as President and a massive mess to clean up after Bush left office. You'd almost think it was a republican plan. Screw the country up and then blame the Dems for having to clean up the mess. It's pure Genius!

A governments only job should be the health welfare and protection of it's citizens.

I'll leave you with one more little tid-bit here...

How We Get Out of the Great Depression II
By Steven Stoft, March 2, 2009
Here we go again: Hoover got us in, and WWII got us out. Bush got us in, and
to his credit, started trying to get us out. Though, mostly he threw money at bankers.
In the Great Depression, Roosevelt tried deficit spending, but he was too timid. Then he stopped in 1937 and the economy nose-dived. It took the humongous deficits of WWII to pull us out of the Great Depression. Those deficits blasted the economy from depression into overdrive.
Of course after the war, we had to pay off a huge national debt, but during that time, from 1946 to 1980, the economy was mainly quite prosperous. We hit a bad recession when Reagan took office, and his early deficit spending made sense (though he didn't know it). But then he continued to drive up the debt through the boom years that followed. That didn't make any sense.
We are now headed into the worst slump since 1938, and you better hope Obama can fix it because that was not a pretty time. Unfortunately, as in the Great Depression, the extreme conservatives would rather trash the country than have our government succeed. They are much worse than Bush.
The main thing to remember is that, with consumer spending going down, business is going to lay people off—not hire them. You can't blame business for this. It's just a vicious cycle that the economy gets into. And you can't blame consumers for not spending in bad times. The only way out of this, if we don't want to wait 10 years, is for the government to spend, pay unemployment insurance, or give tax breaks to people who will spend (not the rich). Of course there's also the problem of the banks. Obama should stop saving the bankers, and just take over the bad banks. Once they're working they can be sold back to the private sector.

So when you see the Deficit remember the above...