The Left's Collapse

[Rockie Cantais]

You can never convince those who have already made up their minds. I rest my case on the above statements.

[Rockie Cantais]

The response to that will be lengthy! lol

[Rockie Cantais]

... What? I'm not sure you read that article properly. You really have to start reading political theory, it doesn't feel like you've grasped the underlying concepts of democracy, communism, socialism, or authoritarianism.

Theory suggest that there is more than one. I just don't agree with yours.

[Rockie Cantais]

I agree, but you really can't blame him. The typical purveyors of his political viewpoint prefer that people know as little as possible. They throw around buzzwords that are sure to get their people fired up, but none of it is meant to actually inform people. I think this thread has been an excellent demonstration of that...

HELLO! I'm right here! RUDE!!!!! lol

And before I continue, I must ask the obvious. Was this entire thread really based on a mind-numbingly misinformed editorial in a right-wing rag? Ugh...

You see there is a left for without it there is no right!

Agreed. Bush is in the authoritarian camp, and Palin is just plain crazy... Unfortunately, she and a few others have managed to bring together previously scattered elements of our society that we should probably have kept in hiding, or at least we'll find that out in retrospect. I'm fairly confident we will never see a president Palin, though. As much as the teabaggers want to think otherwise, the rest of the country is just not as crazy as them. What's giving them high hopes right now is that teabagger candidates for office are having success in Republican primaries. Since their constituencies pull the extreme elements from the right, if they can convince enough well-meaning but misinformed registered Republicans to join their side, they can win a primary.

You really got that that rhetoric down!

What they will find in the general election, however, is that political independents, registered Democrats and non-crazy Republicans outnumber teabaggers by a large margin, and those groups will not vote for an unhinged teabagger... We already have seen evidence of this in a few special elections where a teabagger has gone up against a Democrat. For example, teabagger Doug Hoffman ran off the Republican candidate in the NY-23 election after endorsements from Palin and the like, yet instead of winning an easily winnable district for Republicans, Bill Owens is now the first Democrat to represent NY-23 in over 100 years. You keep talking about November, but I think you will be surprised when America actually goes to the polls. Teabaggers aren't electable, the more they talk, the more that's obvious....

See soon enough.

Yay, someone who gets it! Of course that must mean you're not American... :p Anyway, your depiction of our left and right is spot on, and the situation doesn't make any damn sense to me. I would think that libertarians would have more in common with us progressives, yet those guys usually vote with the Republicans. I think they're brought in by all the small government talk and don't actually realize that Republican presidents, especially the last few, have grown government more than any Democrat could ever get away with.

See someone admits to being a progressive and the rhetoric goes on. Just keep in mind you can be a conservative progressive also.

But all that just goes right back to the first point, keep them as uninformed as possible, and it's right here on display. Obama created $12 trillion in debt, Reagan ended the cold war, Obama is a radical progressive, Obama has a socialist agenda, Bush's wars somehow are "military aid," Europe (the battleground for 2 world wars, among many others) doesn't understand the concept of fighting for its freedom, America has a strong (and by inference, superior) 'moral foundation,' socialism = government control by elites, (that's oligarchy, btw..) Obama is a wimp, (assuming the usual, that he's weak on foreign policy and national security) the media is a leftist/liberal/progressive propaganda machine, everything good since Bush left office is because of Bush, everything bad since Obama took over is Obama's fault, even making the leap that socialism is collapsing Europe as opposed to our parasitic "too big to fail" investment banks meddling in their (ahem, Greece) finances. And that's just in one thread!

You almost have it.

[Rockie Cantais]

Just when you are thinking the Crazy are wrong about the NEW WORLD ORDER!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/81a03be0-7...44feabdc0.html

Someone goes off and makes a statement like this.

[raviy]

Theory suggest that there is more than one. I just don't agree with yours.

Of course you can disagree with political theories. However, it's difficult to comprehend your argument due to your misuse of the names of many political theories. You may disagree with Communism, but what you're currently purporting to disagree with isn't Communism. I suggested that you read political theory to understand the definitions of these words, because at this point, it's fairly pointless to argue over words that you don't have a concrete understanding of.

[Rockie Cantais]

Of course you can disagree with political theories. However, it's difficult to comprehend your argument due to your misuse of the names of many political theories. You may disagree with Communism, but what you're currently purporting to disagree with isn't Communism. I suggested that you read political theory to understand the definitions of these words, because at this point, it's fairly pointless to argue over words that you don't have a concrete understanding of.

I just reject your ideas and terms. Alien as it may be to you it does not diminish my point or message. We continue on this course laid out in the last century we will continue to get the same result, complete failure.


“In a free and republican government, you cannot restrain the voice of the multitude; every man will speak as he thinks, or more properly without thinking.” George Washington

“I consider the people who constitute a society or a nation as the source of all authority in that nation.” Thomas Jefferson

[raviy]

I just reject your ideas and terms. Alien as it may be to you it does not diminish my point or message. We continue on this course laid out in the last century we will continue to get the same result, complete failure.

Again, you can't disagree with something you don't understand.

[Rockie Cantais]

Well then your idea of democracy is contrary to the idea of the American founders, the idea instilled into the American Constitution.

How so? The Constitution is to limit government, the Bill of Rights was added to ensure that basic rights were understood and to bring in the last of the hold outs so it could be ratified.

Further, to your point about recent presidents being less intelligent or competent than the average American... Well... I firstly respectfully disagree. However, even if that is true, then that is a reflection on the people who voted that person into office...
So if you're saying that the majority of Americans vote for a candidate less intelligent than themselves... Well then you're pretty much saying that the majority of Americans are stupid..

In the case of Obama he won with 3 million votes in the populace vote. I wouldn't say Americans were stupid by that but miss lead by Obama's campaign.

... What? I'm not sure you read that article properly. You really have to start reading political theory, it doesn't feel like you've grasped the underlying concepts of democracy, communism, socialism, or authoritarianism.

I understand it but are you looking at the way it should work or the way it works in reailty? I understand and by trying to say I don't means that you have yet to step back and look at the bigger picture.

[Rockie Cantais]

... What? I'm not sure you read that article properly. You really have to start reading political theory, it doesn't feel like you've grasped the underlying concepts of democracy, communism, socialism, or authoritarianism.

So I went back and looked at these and I tell you from my perspective there is not much difference between Communism, Socialism, Authoritarianism, Imperialism. Democracy is rule by the majority and does not necessary protect the rights of the minority. Representative Republic rule by law to ensure only what government is needed to have functional society with maximum freedom for the individual. Free Enterprise and a moral society is needed for the Republic.

[Magn]

So I went back and looked at these and I tell you from my perspective there is not much difference between Communism, Socialism, Authoritarianism, Imperialism.

Well, your perspective is very different from mine, my history/philosophy professors and the books I read that touched the subject matter in some way.

Democracy is rule by the majority and does not necessary protect the rights of the minority.

If a majority (or alternatively, the powerful) decides that it wants something badly enough at the detriment of a minority, NOTHING will protect the rights of that minority.

Story of the world, US included.

ensure only what government is needed to have functional society with maximum freedom for the individual.

And how much government is needed and what it should be focusing on to achieve that is open to a lot of debate.

Free Enterprise and a moral society is needed for the Republic.

Unfortunately for your argument, free enterprise doesn't imply a moral society.

In fact, many individual high in the free enterprise ladder have shown themselves to be individuals of poor moral character.

Thank goodness they are not running for US presidency. I doubt they could widthstand the media scrutiny.

[Luc]

I get the feeling that the world think all Americans want is to rule the world! lol. Some might, to the tell the truth most of us are sick and tired of getting pulled into other peoples fights all the time. A lot of us don't like or trust government and a World Government makes us sick! Just some other A$$ to tell us what to do! Obama, is an American Citizen but he does not understand its people and is falling flat on his face for it. He would have been a better European leader! LOL. SO, I think we should bring all our troops home and just let the world figure its own problems out! Unless you ask for it no more military aid and even if you ask I think we still should say NO! Enough Americans have died for the worlds freedom, time for you to pay for it or lose it! Unless you fight for it you never understand the feeling for it! This idea is growing!

This is as far as I got before I realized this was a joke thread.

Lots of people around the world despise Americans, and the above display of naivety is a great example of why. Do you seriously think that the rest of the world asked you to participate in all those wars? Did anyone come ask you to please go into Iraq? On the contrary, most of the world did not want that to happen unless WMD's were found, and of course they never were. I actually think it's a great thing that Saddam is gone, but I would never be so naive as to believe that you removed him for anything other than self interest. This whole "fighting for freedom" is just bull**** propaganda. The arrogance in thinking your view is right and should be forced upon everybody else is what's making people hate you so much. That you also have no clue about Europe and still use it in your examples all the time just make things worse.

Fighting for the world's freedom? Give me a break. Do you really think the rest of the world can accomplish nothing on their own? Most Europeans are very grateful for the help during the world wars, but again, stop being so naive to believe that the US did it just to be nice. It was in your own self interest to get involved, and it didn't happen until you couldn't refuse. I've got nothing against that behavior at all, it's pragmatic and it makes sense to do what you think is best for your own people. But you really need to get a grip and understand that you're not the messiah helping people out of the goodness of your hearts. The thread starter needs to open his eyes before he tries to flash his political knowledge (which is lacking) and opinions (which are based on narrow mindedness).

No disrespect meant to the US and their armed forces. I'm not a USA hater and am actually grateful for a lot of what you've done. But the kind of arrogance displayed by the thread starter really pisses me off, and let's just say he's not the only one who acts like that.

You can never convince those who have already made up their minds. I rest my case on the above statements.

It's always fun when people spew out things that are so obviously much more suited to be used against themselves than others.

[Rockie Cantais]

This is as far as I got before I realized this was a joke thread.

NO not really but it is intended to shock you.

Lots of people around the world despise Americans, and the above display of naivety is a great example of why. Do you seriously think that the rest of the world asked you to participate in all those wars? Did anyone come ask you to please go into Iraq? On the contrary, most of the world did not want that to happen unless WMD's were found, and of course they never were. I actually think it's a great thing that Saddam is gone, but I would never be so naive as to believe that you removed him for anything other than self interest. This whole "fighting for freedom" is just bull**** propaganda. The arrogance in thinking your view is right and should be forced upon everybody else is what's making people hate you so much. That you also have no clue about Europe and still use it in your examples all the time just make things worse..

No they did not ask us and a lot of us Americans think we should just let the world blow itself to hell while we sit back and let you! I could care less if you hate or love us! I think its time we pull our troops out of Europe as we pull out of Iraq.

Fighting for the world's freedom? Give me a break. Do you really think the rest of the world can accomplish nothing on their own? Most Europeans are very grateful for the help during the world wars, but again, stop being so naive to believe that the US did it just to be nice. It was in your own self interest to get involved, and it didn't happen until you couldn't refuse. I've got nothing against that behavior at all, it's pragmatic and it makes sense to do what you think is best for your own people. But you really need to get a grip and understand that you're not the messiah helping people out of the goodness of your hearts. The thread starter needs to open his eyes before he tries to flash his political knowledge (which is lacking) and opinions (which are based on narrow mindedness).

I see I hit the right button!

Like I said, I think we Americans need pull the majortiy of our troops back home and the let the world have at it! Your right about one thing America First!!!

No disrespect meant to the US and their armed forces. I'm not a USA hater and am actually grateful for a lot of what you've done. But the kind of arrogance displayed by the thread starter really pisses me off, and let's just say he's not the only one who acts like that.

Your too kind!

I make no apology.

It's always fun when people spew out things that are so obviously much more suited to be used against themselves than others.

Hello, I'm still here!!!

[Rockie Cantais]

Well, your perspective is very different from mine, my history/philosophy professors and the books I read that touched the subject matter in some way.



If a majority (or alternatively, the powerful) decides that it wants something badly enough at the detriment of a minority, NOTHING will protect the rights of that minority.

Story of the world, US included.



And how much government is needed and what it should be focusing on to achieve that is open to a lot of debate.



Unfortunately for your argument, free enterprise doesn't imply a moral society.

In fact, many individual high in the free enterprise ladder have shown themselves to be individuals of poor moral character.

Thank goodness they are not running for US presidency. I doubt they could widthstand the media scrutiny.

Can't find anything to disagree with you on that one! :)

[Luc]

No they did not ask us and a lot of us Americans think we should just let the world blow itself to hell while we sit back and let you! I could care less if you hate or love us! I think its time we pull our troops out of Europe as we pull out of Iraq.

It would actually be fun to watch if you actually did sit back. Fun to see your reaction when your ****ty economy goes from ****ty to catastrophic as you lose control of the oil. You've never been out to save the world, just to keep control of regions where there's something you want, such as oil. Leaving the world be would actually be against your interests, especially now that religion has control of the politics and faith in God is preferred over competence.

I see I hit the right button!

Like I said, I think we Americans need pull the majortiy of our troops back home and the let the world have at it! Your right about one thing America First!!!

And in your naivety you think what your military is doing out in the world is not looking after #1. You'll be terrified when you realize the problems that come with having all the military sitting at home doing nothing, and that you depend as much on the world as it depends on you. Are you aware of how much money China lent you lately? And that money was used to stimulate consumption (of mostly chinese goods, so the money go straight back) and save the retarded banks (there are even socialist countries in Europe who didn't have to do that).

Your too kind!

I make no apology.

Oh, I know. You're just here to make yourself feel better. Ignorance is bliss.