Is magic "broken" ?

[forum name]

What's the general consensus on the magic system in Utopia? Is there something wrong with it? Does it not function properly? Any general experiences/thoughts?

[NoobPirateGangsta]

yes. -7% mana on a fail. I'd say so

[Bishop]

fails take more mana, like they always have.

[Angelus]

7% is a bit excessive tho, surely this is just penalising those who leave their mana fully recharge?

[NoobPirateGangsta]

fails take more mana, like they always have.

Yeah fails have always taken mana, just like a successful spell takes mana...Fails last age that killed yer wizzies took 5%.

And now I've noticed that succesful self spells haven taken anywhere from 3 to 5% but usually 4% with 30% guilds. Its all jacked up. I can still successfully cast the nerfed NM spell at a definitely reduced amount of times. Just enough to be effective and upsetting.

[Bishop]

it is just like it always was - fails take 50% more mana/stealth and the more mana/stealth you have the more the ops cost.

[Allanon KT]

Getting 3 acres off a dise when you have 30% guilds is a little retarded... Other than that, not noticed anything much wrong

[Fiskinator]

Fails also seem to take more mana if you have a lot to lose and less if you do not.

[NoobPirateGangsta]

it is just like it always was - fails take 50% more mana/stealth and the more mana/stealth you have the more the ops cost.

How long have you played Utopia? More often than not you responses seem to come from a categorized response list devised by Jolt/OMAC.

Never once last age did a succesful ToG cost me 5% of my mana. was always 3 to 4%. Never once did a failed spell cost me 7% mana. It IS different than last age whether its on your categorized response list or not.

[Bishop]

I could ask you the same thing, but that would be rude and irrelevant now wouldn't it? It was like this last age and in previous ages. Just because you can't remember it doesn't mean it wasn't occurring.

[Mamman]

Different spells have different mana-costs, always a minimum of 3% though (in no relations) so you won't always notice it. Dice is more expensive than ToG for example.
I think a few spells could need a bit of rebalancing but that's not the same thing as broken.

[VT2]

It was always like that.
Magic is only broken because there's almost no use for it.

[NoobPirateGangsta]

I could ask you the same thing, but that would be rude and irrelevant now wouldn't it? It was like this last age and in previous ages. Just because you can't remember it doesn't mean it wasn't occurring.

I remember just fine. What purpose do you serve other than to spew propoganda for jolt and ban people for spam at random? I have never in my days of playing utopia burnt 7% on a fail. If others have then that sucks I am wrong. But seriously, even on succesful self spells my mana just friggin disappears now. Same with stealth. It probly has something to do with them making new thief ops only take 1 to 2%.

They changed some code and didn't realize what they were doing. IDK I am not a coder. But something is not right and to say it is the same as it always has been means this must be your first age. There's no other way to look at it right? Since it IS different then last age and you say its the same as always.

You might get offered a job by jolt soon.

[Bishop]

I remember just fine. What purpose do you serve other than to spew propoganda for jolt and ban people for spam at random? I have never in my days of playing utopia burnt 7% on a fail. If others have then that sucks I am wrong. But seriously, even on succesful self spells my mana just friggin disappears now. Same with stealth. It probly has something to do with them making new thief ops only take 1 to 2%.

They changed some code and didn't realize what they were doing. IDK I am not a coder. But something is not right and to say it is the same as it always has been means this must be your first age. There's no other way to look at it right? Since it IS different then last age and you say its the same as always.

You might get offered a job by jolt soon.

Obviously you do not remember correctly at all - since several people have told you that you are wrong. No code was changed on our standard spells or ops, you just dont seem to understand how mana or stealth is consumed.

[forum name]

Getting back on track...


I asked the question because it seems to me that magic is a very secondary and less-considered game mechanic to thievery. My kingdom is trying an A/M strat this age and finding magic to be very underwhelming and difficult to achieve any significant level of success with, despite maintaining what should be effective numbers.

On one hand, MAGIC:

1) The only way to improve Magic is with Channeling science and raw wizard production.
2) Wizard production is difficult and tedious.
3) There is no way to defend against Magic other than straight WPA.
4) There are two ways to kill wizards, Massacre and Assassinate Wizards, compared to only one way to kill thieves.
5) Given the increased ability to kill wizards and the decreased ability to train wizards, it makes Magic overall a more costly skill to maintain.
6) On top of maintenance costs being higher, Magic also requires runes (normally) and that simply adds more cost to using the skill.
7) Given that overall higher maintenance cost, Magic does not have an increased impact to go along with it. It does not seem to "do more" than thievery, yet it costs more overall.

On the other hand, THIEVERY:

1) Thievery can be improved with Crime science and thief production, but also has Thieves Dens and the existence of racial bonuses to Thievery. It has double the avenues of improvement that Magic has.
2) Thieves are relatively easy to train and re-train at will.
3) Thievery has Watchtowers as an added defense feature against it.
4) There is only one way to kill thieves, that being Massacres.
5) Given that there is only one way to kill thieves, combined with the ease of re-training thieves, it makes Thievery overall a much easier skill to maintain.
6) On top of the ease of maintenance, Thievery does not have an added required resource cost attached to using it. (I do not count gold, as it is not required to "use" thievery.)
7) Given the overall lower cost of maintenance, Thievery seems to have a strong impact on key areas of the game, such as military damage, population/economy damage and building damage, and it costs less than Magic overall.

***

In summary, Magic and Thievery are two different game mechanics/skills that are capable of doing essentially the same thing. Yet somehow, Magic is more challenging to succeed at and Thievery is more versatile and impactful as a result.

Thievery feels like a game mechanic that is invested in and paid attention to, while Magic feels like an afterthought game mechanic that wasn't really given much creative consideration.

My question posed is... why use Magic to any large extent? When given a choice between the two, why would anyone ever choose Magic over Thievery to focus on using?

(I know the easy answer is "nobody would" but I'm looking for different sides of the story and alternate views on Magic, not just the same old "yeah magic sucks" agreements.)