Best Kingdom ever?

[Palem]

ya, of course

and there it is. It would be silly to assume the opposite and yet proof is "required" to say that top kds traded? It's common knowledge. All the top kds know they cheated, even if it was only trading.

In fact, everyone knew top kds cheated, even if they weren't in top kds. Going into the burden of proof is so very pointless.

[Korp]

Often in discussion like these the top kds get targetted as the big bad cheaters but the reality is quite different, everyone cheated from the lowest kd to the biggest.

[Palem]

Often in discussion like these the top kds get targetted as the big bad cheaters but the reality is quite different, everyone cheated from the lowest kd to the biggest.

That's true, but the discussion was that there's no proof that top kds cheated.

In reality, the mid-tear kds prolly cheated more. They tried to cheat their way to the top, but they lacked the raw skill that the top kds possessed so they got stuck below them.

[Bishop]

and there it is. It would be silly to assume the opposite and yet proof is "required" to say that top kds traded? It's common knowledge. All the top kds know they cheated, even if it was only trading.

In fact, everyone knew top kds cheated, even if they weren't in top kds. Going into the burden of proof is so very pointless.

Yes, proof is required, otherwise you should believe people if they say they didn't trade and play in a top kd - works both ways right? I don't see how it is ok to stand on the morale high ground and claim the top cheat and you didn't, and have it accepted because you are in a ghetto/mid ranked etc. From what I've seen this age and last the majority of deletions were in mid ranked kds. Accusations of cheating, frankly, annoy me - because accusations that cannot be proved incorrect are nasty.

edit: not really trying to direct that at anyone personally.

[Korp]

That's true, but the discussion was that there's no proof that top kds cheated.

There is probably no proof that top kds cheated but its become like a universal law, top kd = must have cheated anything else is impossible.

[Palem]

Yes, proof is required, otherwise you should believe people if they say they didn't trade and play in a top kd - works both ways right? I don't see how it is ok to stand on the morale high ground and claim the top cheat and you didn't, and have it accepted because you are in a ghetto/mid ranked etc.

The likely hood of cheating went up dramatically if you were in a mid-tear/top kd. If someone from Pansies had said "Nope, I've never cheated" they could very well be telling the truth, but it's much more likely that s/he's lying. Likewise, if someone from a no-name ghetto says "Nah, never cheated", that's a little easier to swallow. People don't really trade into ghettos, ghettos don't really have any kind of advantage, so it's unlikely that the ghetto was cheating.

It's a matter of playing the %s.

From what I've seen this age and last the majority of deletions were in mid ranked kds. Accusations of cheating, frankly, annoy me - because accusations that cannot be proved incorrect are nasty.

I can't speak for Fates, but the only claim of cheating I'll ever throw around is that top kds traded, i.e. cheated as I didn't interact with the top kds draw up claims of anything else. I don't think this needs any proof considering most top kds openly admit that they traded.

Anything outside of that though, such as X-logging or multi'ing, I think are claims that DO need to be justified as even in a crowd that considered trading to be ok, these types of cheating were not.

[Palem]

There is probably no proof that top kds cheated but its become like a universal law, top kd = must have cheated anything else is impossible.

If you consider trading to have been cheating like I did, then cheating was the only explaination of how the top kds existed aside from nearly super-human dedication.

However, those that were ok with trading that still claimed the top were cheating were prolly just bogus claims.

[Korp]

If you consider trading to have been cheating like I did, then cheating was the only explaination of how the top kds existed aside from nearly super-human dedication.

But in reality thats not much proof is it? Those are just assumptions made. Im not saying they didnt cheat but for them it was a socially acceptable thing. But its pretty tiresome that one from a underdog person is pretty much safe from anything and can throw accusations at the top without any kind of real proof cause thats the way it is.

[Palem]

I already gave a proof which I'm still not sure why Bishop didn't accept it.

I believe somewhere in the 'Lower kd sizes' thread there is a comment (I believe from you Bishop) that top kds are not sustainable without trading.

The top kds were certainly being sustained, thus, you must have been trading.

It's a perfectly sound argument. Bringing ghettos into the argument is invalid because the argument only deals with sustainability, an issue mid-tear and ghettos didn't have to constantly fight off, at least not in the extreme that the top kds did.

[Magn]

Often in discussion like these the top kds get targetted as the big bad cheaters but the reality is quite different, everyone cheated from the lowest kd to the biggest.

In reality, the mid-tear kds prolly cheated more. They tried to cheat their way to the top, but they lacked the raw skill that the top kds possessed so they got stuck below them.

I resent those implications. I have been monarch roughly 60%-75% of the time in the past and under my supervision, we never, ever traded prior to trading being legal.

We started using irc only in the past 5 ages or so and even now, irc usage, while strongly encouraged, is not mandatory.

We always used pimp as a synchronization tool, but again, we accepted forum intel from those with restricted Pimp access (but 95% of the KD used Pimp out of their own free will, because it was convenient to do so).

We've eliminated some players, but for the longest time, we had a very lenient "one attack per day" minimum requirements (raised it to like 1.25 in the last 6 ages or so) in accordance with the recommended minimum number of logins in the guide (but the vast majority of the kingdom had the motivation to do more, again out of their own free will) and we always had an impartial system in place to forgive the occasional slip.

I like to think we've played this game pretty much by the book.

Point is, I have toiled very hard for our KD to remain competitive while being very understanding, fair and by the rules. If you chose to take a shortcut, its not my place to berate you, but don't cheapen my efforts by pretending that everyone cheats just to justify yourselves.

And btw, trading did give us a huge boost once it was legalized. I could see how KDs who traded all along would have had a definite edge when trading was illegal (not saying that was all there was to it, but the trading would have been a definite edge).

[hint]

Ever since trading was legalized, I believe the amount of cheating has dropped significantly. And i don't mean the drop coming from trading, but from the general know-how and attitude change.

in the 20ies, majority of better kd players were all time up to date regarding where to look for and find best proxies, what sites and stuff was blacklisted by swirve etc..at least at some point of their career until they got a matching country or emailed Blake some BS about moving away. And little later, setting up CC proxy when needing a sitting for few days was basically top kd 101.
And since knowing that u were already technically a cheater + knowing well how to do it + being confident u are not gonna be caught meant that the line seemed a lot thinner and lowering urself to stuff like xlogging, multing, farming whatever seemed a lot more tempting to a lot wider audience than it seems now.
And when free and working proxies got too rare was when when people actually started buying proxies from matching countries, not to mention the login site..Anyways that made xlog and cheating just so easy that it was ridiculous.
Obviously there are still cheaters in this game and among top kds, but i just think the general picture looks a lot more black and white and less gray then it did b4.

Regarding ghettos and cheating, my first ever age in battlefields, my semi-ghetto improved a lot during the age, but near eoa got 8 delitions. Turned out that monarch didn't know how to trade nor xlog.

Best kd ever wise, I believe there have been quite many kds who have been scary good during their short stints of existence or had a few standout ages, but only Pansies and Brute Force had continuous enough success in the top and longevity in it to stand way above the rest. Playboys obviously deserves a mention as well for the amount of crowns and ages of playing in top (but kinda like some of the best Abs kds i have in mind, I've sensed em to actually being one the very best in only a few very rare ages, usually just a lot of good diplo and naps and mediocre top10 level playing).

[Fates Warning]

But in reality thats not much proof is it? Those are just assumptions made. Im not saying they didnt cheat but for them it was a socially acceptable thing. But its pretty tiresome that one from a underdog person is pretty much safe from anything and can throw accusations at the top without any kind of real proof cause thats the way it is.

Wait a minute... Assumptions? We've had players from a whole hell of a lot of TOP kingdoms that ADMIT THEY TRADED ILLEGALLY right here in these forums over the years. I remember a whole lot of them when legalizing trading was under consideration. And yes, BISHOP was also in those threads. He never admitted to trading or anything but now he asks for proof?? Assumptions my ass...

There were many kingdoms that prided themselves back in the day with playing by the rules. And we got stepped on by the top that traded and stacked their kingdoms.

And Trading was just the tip of the iceberg. Let's continue with account collecting & x-logging. Always loved the "yea, we collected accounts and had all the log-in info for all the kingdom yet we never stooped to x-logging". lol.

[Korp]

Wait a minute... Assumptions? We've had players from a whole hell of a lot of TOP kingdoms that ADMIT THEY TRADED ILLEGALLY right here in these forums over the years.

Yes assumptions, to have any real evidence you would need to experince it yourself, second hand information seldom is viable evidence. But please provide me with proof then, it cant be hard for you then if it was so obvious that the top cheated. Besides you msised the point, its people like you that think cause they have a underdog position that they are safe from any accusations "I cant cheat cause i play in a sucky Kd!!!!" Thats so bloody tiresome.

There were many kingdoms that prided themselves back in the day with playing by the rules. And we got stepped on by the top that traded and stacked their kingdoms.

Yea, sure, "Hey we suck but at least we dont cheat!!!" .. no i dont believe you, you got stepped on cause you were worse players nothing else.

And Trading was just the tip of the iceberg. Let's continue with account collecting & x-logging. Always loved the "yea, we collected accounts and had all the log-in info for all the kingdom yet we never stooped to x-logging". lol.

That says more about your mentality than anything else, yet again you carry no proof and accusing other more active kds usually is the noobs way of excusing his own crappy playing. But hey, it cant be easy being a worthless players all this years :(

[Kaer Hurlin]

Let's continue with account collecting & x-logging. Always loved the "yea, we collected accounts and had all the log-in info for all the kingdom yet we never stooped to x-logging". lol.

Are you saying if you collected accounts you automatically X logged ?


We allways had Kingdom accounts since the very first days and never Xlogged when I was moanarch .... no need for it allways found the right person to fill the account ... only ghettos at heart Xlogged.

[Palem]

Yes assumptions, to have any real evidence you would need to experince it yourself, second hand information seldom is viable evidence. But please provide me with proof then, it cant be hard for you then if it was so obvious that the top cheated.

I've already provided proof.