New VM rules

[MorbidAngel]

OK after recent events I am really wondering what new VM rules are. How do you (bs) decide which province is on vacation and which isn't? Based on what information? Enough reports?

For those out of loop 2 sanc orcs went to VM after kd stocked ~600k solds on each. Few days after those provs first get suspended then kicked out of VM. Few days ago Insolence bank went to VM and is now kicked out of it.

[Korp]

I think abusing vacation mode in ways its not intended has always been a punishable offense?

Thou the Insolence bank case can seem a bit difuse even if we all know that it went into vac mode to avoid getting feeded on.

[lichemaster]

Quite the contrary korp, going into vm to avoid being hit has been punished *severely* before.

[Korp]

And trading was deletable offense before yet most of the provinces that traded didnt get deleted even if they knew and we knew that people were cheating. But as said the seccond example isnt as clear as the first.

[Bishop]

Vacation Mode is for when you are on Vacation. If you aren't then the admins can choose to kick you out - assuming they have reasonable belief that you are not.

[lichemaster]

FW is abuse Palem - there was discussion about it a year ago or so. It was decided that it wouldn't be acted on as there are underlying issues with game mechanics (e.g relations system) that need to be addressed instead.

Shouldn't this rationale apply to VM?

[Bishop]

why should it? There is nothing wrong with how VM works.

[lichemaster]

Obviously there is.

- There is now an undisclosed and unenforced-by-the-mechanics limit on the resources you can have on your province when you go to VM.
- You can only go to VM when you have the subjective and unverifiable motive of really being in "vacation".
- This also means a province in a SK can really never go into VM unless it has already exhausted its maximum per age sitting days, since no one really goes into VM in a SK because of "vacation" if sitting time is available.

In my opinion, it seems like a recipe for rules that will be applied randomly to people in VM depending on how eloquent the reports the moderation gets are, which is a recipe for unfairness and a meddling (in game politics) moderation.

[Coke]

I think it's very debatable since now that there is a sitting function that most if not all Top KDs pay for. This is because a sat prov is so much better for over KD growth then a KD in VM. So does that mean any prov going into VM in a top KD is now suspected of avoiding something? What are the guidelines now for proving you are actually away? If you went away legitimately and your KD knowing you'd be going away aided you soldiers before VM kicked in. Are you still in violation of VM?

Sorry to say but the case by case response isn't really cutting it since there are so many shades of gray in these rules and the judgments once made are carried so swiftly on issues that weren't even mentioned before.

I think that a clarification of not only VM but TB, GBP, and FW among many other issues need to be cleared up before admins take immediate action mid age. The coincidences in addition to other coincidences are the things that spawn rumors (even if unfounded).

Therefore clarifications should be made, with at least a good time-line for any KD that had previously thought (due to a certain mod's comments on irc -fact) not to be in violation, to have time to adjust when they find out they are actually indeed in violation.

[MorbidAngel]

Vacation Mode is for when you are on Vacation. If you aren't then the admins can choose to kick you out - assuming they have reasonable belief that you are not.

Exactly. But how can they prove that? Based on "yeah I saw him online, he defo isn't on vacation!" proof? What if that person just want to rest from the game a little? One former player of ours is ghettoing arnd, she is tired of teh game so she went to vaca mode for a week or two, to cool her heard off a bit. But she is not on vacation, she is chatting etc. If I report her, will she be kicked out of VM too?

What is a vacation? What do admins consider as one? Is having exams considered as vacation? Bec I defo have internet connection and I defo CAN login, the fact that it will destroy my concentration and I might do exam bad, is it relevant?

But back on the main topic of this comment, how can admins say what is vaca and what isn't? If I report someone for using multies, provide proof where they admit it, and community agrees on my opinion (same as VM "abuse" was treated in one of two cases I mentioned in OP), why don't they get deleted? Because there is no physical proof they are using multies? Where is that proof in VM abuse?

Sanc obviously abused VM, they stocked 1.2mil solds on provs that were in vaca, its not doable if they used VM correctly or not. But Insolence matter I don't think was handled well (for the record, I dislike Insolence, so don't think I'm defending them).

So if VM is only legal when I cannot connect to the internet (yes, I have heard that was the decision about this rule, but I wasn't some of big heads to say yes or no to that), should I just delete my account? Or am I forced to pay sitting credits while I can VM for free instead. Inso guy deleted. Was he deleted because he didn't have time to login and he got kicked out of VM so he decided it will be better not to be farmed and humiliated or he just deleted because he could? Who are you to judge? You cannot have proof, you can only guess. You cannot have physical proof, forcing out that info is illegal afaik. But are you sure you want to start guessing? Now its VM abuse, tomorrow will be something bigger. Imagine what consequences will be if you guessed wrong on, lets say, someone asking friend to get intel of the enemy?

[MorbidAngel]

Quite the contrary korp, going into vm to avoid being hit has been punished *severely* before.

Give me examples. I don't remember a single one except mass VM abuse. Single prov was never punished for VM abuse, not even when kds did thing sanc was punished for.

[Bishop]

are any of you actually trying to say that the 2 cases we saw last week did not look like obvious cases of VM abuse? Its not really that hard guys.

[Coke]

are any of you actually trying to say that the 2 cases we saw last week did not look like obvious cases of VM abuse? Its not really that hard guys.

It really doesn't matter whether or not the cases in the past were or were not abuse since the punishment/damage has already been done. What I think this thread is asking for is clarification on the rules and how they will be applied consistently instead of what the mods are saying as a case by case basis.

There are so many shades of grey of things that weren't even enforced in the past, so before the mods actually go about enforcing them, maybe they should clarify what is and what isn't breaking the rules so that KDs can adapt ahead of time to avoid breaking the mods interpretation of the rules.

And i'll also like to add that due to previous events Mods on UtoNet providing clarification on rules DO NOT have any weight at all. Therefore the clarification can only occur here on the forums, which is why the thread is started.


So instead of trying to deflect off the topic, what are exactly the new rules for VM? Are people in Top KDs not allowed to VM period? Are cows not allowed to VM period? If players are allowed to VM what is the requirement, no internet? no irc activity?

Clarification is needed.

[Landro]

An easy solution to the soldier stocking VM abuse mentioned by MorbidAngel would be to deny provinces from entering VM if they have more than 120% pop. Similar limits could be placed on Cash and runes.

Preventing the abuse is better than punishing people for breaking rules that aren't coded.

[Korp]

There are so many shades of grey of things that weren't even enforced in the past, so before the mods actually go about enforcing them, maybe they should clarify what is and what isn't breaking the rules so that KDs can adapt ahead of time to avoid breaking the mods interpretation of the rules.

You seem to believe mods (moderators) have some kind of power ingame which they dont they are just here to keep the forums cleaning. Which dont involve any power at all over ingame activity. What more need to be clairified really? Abusing vacation mode is against the rules period, t here were two great examples mentioned above how its used not as intended.