Raze in war? better than massacre or trad march?

[gojete]

Has anyone actually tried just using raze attacks in war?
I can see how razing the enemy buildings can make overpopulation impossible for his army to attack.
But with the coward gangbang protections, that make it really hard to kill people, maybe one cant even raze enough buildings to neutralize an enemy.

I can see how a 25 provinces, old ,square mentality kd wouldnt try it out of fear of getting trashed.

I run a little ghetto that might as well try this just for the sake of it.
But I would like some feedback and possible outcomes from the most experienced and the less experienced too, before it happens.

I have made it clear that we are going to try weird things to everyone, we are all weird in my kd so it might be possible that people will try anything just to see if it works.

We want to war a bigger enemy now that everyone in our size is scared of us, the plan is the following.

Send a dragon, start waving with massacres on a single enemy target, get into war and do gangbang raze

2.- Send a dragon, raze down the most active enemy provinces try disable them, then in war do razes to try too.

3.-Send a dragon, do massacres all the way from start and into war and in the end hit for land before the enemy withdraws.

Keep in mind that we will hit a larger kingdom with probably larger provinces, that wont be scared to fight us even with a dragon. So we really need the prewar to be as destructive as possible for the enemy. We will send dragon after dragon. Do not worry about the money or think that it can be used for better things. we are rich.

Will doing a lot of raze attacks in war work? Has anyone tried it? Are we going to fall flat on our faces?
I also hope that the kd we hostile dont read this. If you read it, you are going down punks

[goodz]

flawed... i couldnt read whole post it was less logical then some of my own, and i can't read my own posts most of the time

1) the troop losses would probably be equalish to the ammount of land destroyed so overpop is unlikley
2) land in progress provides the same space for people to live as land thats built (except homes ofc) so they would build their land and then attack

I might recommend that if you have chained a province, and it is running next to 0 defense but has kept high offense.. you could do razes on it to destroy land i guess, still massacres would wreck the province more

[gojete]

Land in progress provide the same space!?
May i ask what the hell is raze for then? Does anyone ever raze in war at all?

[goodz]

gojete - no they dont

[Landro]

Massacre (during war) sounds like a smarter move to me. It kills def, pop, wiz and thief and also destroys buildings though not as many as raze would have. An Orc with 50%+ barren acres would most definitely be in a lot of pain. Dwarf on the other hand can rebuild for free but that will still take 22 hours.

@goodz, during war, raze only destroys buildings; not land

[goodz]

Ah i typoed, if you read post it is pretty obvious i dont think they are destroying acres, but destroying the buildings

[gojete]

We will try the massacre thing first then , Weve got 1 target and will see if they retal, then we found another kingdom that is currently attacking a weaker one.The weaker one is not retaling much I dont think they want to war the aggressive one since they are still at normal.

I can see now how raze in war will fail miserably.

We will probably try it just for the sake of seeing the results , With a constant dragon and thieves stealing all their gold, they should have a hard time rebuilding.

It could work here in the lil ghettos where people are not so good and organized though. Again the biggest drawback i can think of, apart from all the ones you mentioned above, is that the gangbangprotection will make the raze attacks less succesful everytime?

Does gangbang protection affect how many buildings get razed ? I remember in our second war i was very little 300 acres, and the enemy had already won, so they just spent their time razing me and i spent my time rebuilding over and over... even at 300 acres and the enemy 900 they did raze all of my buildings. even with the big nw difference and gb protection.


Do you know if this works?

someone said in the forums that we could just get waved and wait for the enemy to be hostile towards us, so that ops were enabled and then we can retal with our tms doing ns and fb and all that. And when we weaken 2 provinces or so we could retal with armies and go all waves out. Do you think this can work?

[Ordray]

I'd suggest going with massacre during war and your pre-war wave. I think that you'll have better success with that. It'll have a similar effect to razes (it destroys some buildings, although fewer per attack than raze) but it will also have another effect by killing their peasants, thieves, and wizards, thus reducing their economic power, TPA, and WPA.

Massacres: reduce BE and income ( dead peasants,) requires an investment to rebuild destroyed buildings, reduces TPA & WPA, and kills troops home -2 hour attack time, too

Raze (during war): reduces income (fewer jobs,) requires an investment to rebuild destroyed buildings (more than massacre,) and kills troops; attack time and gains not based on NW

The advantage of massacre is in that it reduces the enemy TPA and WPA, making it easier for your T/Ms and/or hybrids to do their job.

Also, you'll want to focus on more than one target at a time. 2 targets might do it if you're fighting enemies your size (or more, but since you said ghetto, I'm assuming 15-20 provinces, I don't know your actual size...)
Key ops/spells on provinces being massacre chained: Storms, chastity (if you have any gnomes), and MS (I really hope that you have a mystic) Also, kidnap and FB, especially early on, plus NS. Once the enemy is at a low defensive level keep the 3 main spells that I mentioned on them, and either make a Trad wave or move onto another province. But do make sure that if your targets are nice and ripe (very low DPA and NW/A) to make that Trad wave before min time.

About the raze on your 300 acre province from 900 acre provinces, razes are not (either gains or attack time) based on NW.

[goodz]

the thing with massacring is your not doing it to instantly disable a province. Its to cripple it for the whole war and then u can take its land near the end. Make sure after you massacre it, you get MS and chastity on it 24/7. Will your massacring it make sure it has pitfalls and bribe generals. Ideally you will kill a ton of troops/peasents. and then by keeping its peasents low as it attacks it cant replace lost troops. its wpa/tpa should also suck a bit so you can probably op it easily. Mind you, you don't want to waste toooo much kd resources on 1 prov (attacks/magic/thievery)

[Ordray]

the thing with massacring is your not doing it to instantly disable a province. Its to cripple it for the whole war and then u can take its land near the end. Make sure after you massacre it, you get MS and chastity on it 24/7. Will your massacring it make sure it has pitfalls and bribe generals. Ideally you will kill a ton of troops/peasents. and then by keeping its peasents low as it attacks it cant replace lost troops. its wpa/tpa should also suck a bit so you can probably op it easily. Mind you, you don't want to waste toooo much kd resources on 1 prov (attacks/magic/thievery)

I forgot to mention Pitfalls and BG... Storms+MS+Chastity+FB+Kidnapping+massacre = optimal peasant killing. Once your gains from FB and kidnapping are getting pretty low (depending on size, but maybe in the double digits per op) you should have your T/Ms switch to another target, either another massacre chain target with FB+Kidnapping or to a future target with FB+NS to soften it up for your attackers.
Also, on your KD's side, you might want to increase your hospital % and maybe consider having your provinces run some GS as well. Those two are to help you maintain your acres and offense better during the massacre chains.

As goodz mentioned, the full effect of massacres are not immediate; they take time to show up. BE gradually decreases (though the fewer jobs filled the more rapid the decrease) and the income decrease will take 24-36 hours to be fully in effect (including if you massacre wave in hostilities.) After their decreased income they'll have trouble retraining troops; and, eventually, they'll have trouble paying their armies.

[unstoppable]

homie, if u wanna learn to war, best way is to practice. hit me up, we get down to business.

[goodz]

I'm not your homie, pal

[Ordray]

Neither am I, but for four easy payments of 199.99 acres, I might reconsider it.

[gojete]

ahahahha


well so far we have only managed to do real razes out of war , sent 3 more dragons and 2 more kingdoms have gone fortify .
I am having a serious problem getting money though, with avian warrior that attacks every 6 hours is hard to find plunder targets and so on. I am basically training def and off specs plus thieves gavce up on elites altogether.

Anyway we will try to get ready to hostile a way bigger kingdom just for the sake of it.
So far we have hit on kds that are 10% to 20% bigger. But it seems we need to do 30%,

I dont think we can afford to be nice and massacre, i was thinking about sending a dragon and chaining with raze from day 1 and disable whoever has their amy out even before war.

If we are lucky we can probably disable 1 to 3 provinces before we hit war, that should counterbalance the fact that the enemy has more provinces than us .
OR maybe they fortify too...

I really dont believe in sending messages asking for wars and being nice and aving rules and crap.

Other than that ima do the massacre thing that you recommend with pitfalls and all that.