Now that the final changes are out

[faye]

During war, I doubt you will be replenishing your elite army count. Even if you are, you won't be getting as much offense as you would if you spent it on off specs only. Thus as an Undead, you will not be losing elites during the war, unless through ambushes and NS. The conversion of specs to elites is 10-20% at max, and the loss of units on ambushes shouldn't affect the total offensive strength of the Undead.

Halfers have +40% thief effectiveness, so having a higher TPA is quite simple for them. Although, elves have a stronger/cheaper defense. Halfers have the edge due to their stronger thief abilities, which would in turn make them last longer than an elf during war (cheaper thieves also). Forgot about hospitals for Halflings. Since they can't have any, they will lose their armies quickly.

[Ordray]

@ Kayani
Hmmm... Let's see:
Elf:
Population/Acre: 25
Goal DPA: 45
Draft Rate: 65
TPA: 2
Elite Offense Value: 6
Defense Spec Value: 6
Military Units/acre: 16.25
D-specs/Acre: 7.5
Elites/Acre 6.75
OPA: 40.5

Halfling:
Population/Acre: 26.25
Goal DPA: 45
Draft Rate: 65
TPA: 3
Elite Offense Value: 6
Defense Spec Value: 5
Military Units/acre: 17.0625
D-specs/Acre (or elites used for defense): 9
Elites/Acre (or elites used for offense) 5.0625
OPA: 30.375

*Note* The OPA is unmodded by generals, personality, or TGs. 0% homes and 0% science assumed. All numbers are raw.

[DHaran]

Hm. I'd put Halfer above Elf for army strength. I think a lot of other people would too. 6/5 Elite w/ +5% pop vs. 6/3 Elite makes a big difference.

Ya Bish it's not fair to compare them overall, but ^ that comment specifically compare only army strength and said Halfer was better. I just wanna see how he/she came up with that notion beyond posting vague numbers with no meaning whatsoever. But what do I know I'm just a troll haha.

[Avenger]

Edit:

Deleted my post. Not gonna reply to a troll. Run the math. Halfer can have better army than Elf and still run 3ish higher raw TPA.

Actually I ran the numbers, and Elf has slightly superior army with the same draft rate/(raw)wpa&tpa/sci/TGs/stables/homes/whatever.

[Kayani]

Fine.

How am I trolling? You know me so well from your whole 3 months of posting here? rofl

Posting random numbers doesn't prove anything, how did you come up with those figures?

DHaran - I don't need to know you well. But I've read dozens, if not hundreds of your posts. I said *I* would put Halfer above Elf. And I do. And then you said "no, not really", somehow inferring that you know more than I do about what I think.

How did I come up with those figures? It's called math. God, I don't even know why I'm responding to you ...

Of course it depends on what you want your province to do. And of course, obviously an Elf can have a better military than a Halfling if the Halfling doesn't train any troops or whatever. And of course there are other things to consider, such as hospitals and whatnot. But if you keep things equal, and just compare raw army strength/numbers, the Halfling wins.

Pick a draft rate and since you won't do the math, I'll show you. It's trivial.

All else being equal
25 people per acre. We're attackers, so ... I dunno - pick some number of wizards. 1.5 per acre raw. And we need peasants. How about 7.5 per acre? So, that leaves 25 - 1.5 - 7.5 for army/thieves. Or, 16 people per acre. Sounds good.

Let's give them 2 thieves per acre raw, 14 in military.

Ahh, but what combination you say?

Doesn't matter.

Elf:

0 Elite / 14 D Spec - 0 OPA, 84 DPA
1 Elite / 13 D Spec - 6 OPA, 81 DPA
2 Elite / 12 D Spec - 12 OPA, 78 DPA
3 Elite / 11 D Spec - 18 OPA, 75 DPA
4 Elite / 10 D Spec - 24 OPA, 72 DPA
5 Elite / 9 D Spec - 30 OPA, 69 DPA
6 Elite / 8 D Spec - 36 OPA, 66 DPA
7 Elite / 7 D Spec - 42 OPA, 63 DPA
8 Elite / 6 D Spec - 48 OPA, 60 DPA
9 Elite / 5 D Spec - 54 OPA, 57 DPA
10 Elite / 4 D Spec - 60 OPA, 54 DPA
11 Elite / 3 D Spec - 66 OPA, 51 DPA
12 Elite / 2 D Spec - 72 OPA, 48 DPA
13 Elite / 1 D Spec - 78 OPA, 45 DPA
14 Elite / 0 D Spec - 84 OPA, 42 DPA

Now, which is best? Pick your favorite.

Got it?

Ok, good. Compare it to a Halfling, all elite army, with 14 people per acre:

Halfling, 14 Elite / 0 Spec - 84 OPA, 70 DPA

Which Elf combo is better than 84 OPA, 70 DPA?

Now, consider that Halfing has 5% pop bonus, which is an extra 1.25 people per acre. You put them all into Elites, and Halfer is now at 91.5 OPA and 76.25 DPA.

What did I say?

Halfer can have better army than Elf and still run 3ish higher raw TPA.

And they can. Halfling with 5 TPA would have 12.25 Elites per acre, which is 73.5 OPA / 61.25 DPA which is still higher than most (all?) of the Elf combinations.

Now I know from experience that everyone's gonna come and say there are other things to consider. There are. I'm not debating that, and that's not what I said. I'm saying ONLY that raw army strength, Halfling has a higher number than an Elf, with all else being equal. However you wanna play your province and construct your army and build your acres and whatnot is up to you. And there is more involved that just looking at raw OPA / DPA.

But you wanted to see the mysterious math and there it is.

Now, make sure you pick my post apart like I know you're going to do. That always happens here. People aren't happy until everyone else is wrong for some reason. That's why I didn't wanna post math in the first place.

[Avenger]

Which Elf combo is better than 84 OPA, 70 DPA?

Your mysterious math doesn't consider the fact that in most cases, only your practical def matters. Unless you like to keep your armies home and be totally useless to the kd (and yes, still being breakable for any decent attacker). Only problem I would see in this comparison is the nw efficiency of these armies, where halfling obviously wins (but will sustain huge losses unless cleric).

[Palem]

It's wayyyy too serious in this thread...

Lighten up buds! =]

[Holabadoo]

Kayani, if your halfer is to keep 40 dpa home leets out (not considering any ME bonuses to simplify), he will only have 36 opa to send out, while the elf on the other hand can keep 40 dpa with 6,66 dspa and that leaves 7,34 leets to send out. 7,34x6= 44,04 opa. even with +5% pop the halfer can't compete with that, as a pure attacker that is.

[DeDLySMuRF]

My Personal Thoughts:

Human/Orc/Avian
Undead/Dwarf/Halfling
Elf/Faery


The problem is, every kingdoms different. They have different dynamics. Each kingdom needs to be setup for there particular playing style. So in some kingdoms Undeads may work just fine, but in 75% of the kingdoms I wouldnt suggest it. Same applies for Orcs.

Dwarfs can cast fog, but they are not immune to it anymore. Soooo Dwarf Sucks!
Elfs lost alot, Sooooo Elf Sucks!


Its going to be a fun age. There should be plenty of Avians, Orcs, Undeads, Humans, Halflings and Faerys. I would bet money Dwarf and Elf are played the lowest. Followed by Orcs, then Avians. Undeads, Humans, Halflings and Faerys will probably be pretty popular though.

[Ordray]

How did I come up with those figures? It's called math. God, I don't even know why I'm responding to you ...

Of course it depends on what you want your province to do. And of course, obviously an Elf can have a better military than a Halfling if the Halfling doesn't train any troops or whatever. And of course there are other things to consider, such as hospitals and whatnot. But if you keep things equal, and just compare raw army strength/numbers, the Halfling wins.

Pick a draft rate and since you won't do the math, I'll show you. It's trivial.

1.) Poor reasoning in your assumptions. You are comparing the total OPA of an all elite Halfer army against the total offense of a mixed army for Elves. By comparing the total offense of the Halfer to the Elf, you are insinuating that you are not leaving any defense at home (well, technically you have 1 DPA at home even if there are no troops...) IF you leave no troops at home, then it won't matter how the Elf's offense is in comparison, they'll be quad tapping when you're only doing 1-2 on them. Elf wins.

2.) Look at my numbers. Do I need to type out all of my calculations as well? I can. The only difference in the two races is the TPA and pop bonus. Elf TPA is 2 for defense and the Halfer is 3 because of a statement that you made earlier about Halfers having a better military even while running 3 TPA. See quote below:

Edit:

Deleted my post. Not gonna reply to a troll. Run the math. Halfer can have better army than Elf and still run 3ish higher raw TPA.

3.) Before talking down to me, maybe you should think your arguments through a bit better.

4.) Also note, that according to my calculations, a Halfer wouldn't even equal the army of the Elf if they did have the same rTPA.

It's wayyyy too serious in this thread...

Lighten up buds! =]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k

[Kayani]

3.) Before talking down to me, maybe you should think your arguments through a bit better.

Ordray, I'm sorry if you took offense, but I was speaking to DHaran, not you. :(

[Ordray]

It's all good. Elf still has a better practical offense than Halfer.

[Danzig]

Most times your not even sending out all your offense and in those cases Hafling will have better defense at home and become harder to chain for most wars. For the vast majority of the server keeping a good defense is a good policy as their kingdoms are not as organized as the top 20-25 are. In today's Utopia top 50 networth is still basically ghetto kingdoms of semi active people.

[coboss]

@ Kayani
Hmmm... Let's see:

*Note* The OPA is unmodded by generals, personality, or TGs. 0% homes and 0% science assumed. All numbers are raw.

Neglecting WPA and thievery effective bonus, shame on you :P ... let's take into account WPA and thief bonus see how things play out (using 3 raw as the base, even though I would run at least 4 raw to start):

Elf:
Population/Acre: 25
Goal DPA: 45
pPA: 8
WPA: 3
TPA: 2
Elite Offense Value: 6
Defense Spec Value: 6
Military Units/acre: 16.25
D-specs/Acre: 7.5
Elites/Acre 4.5
OPA: 27

Halfling:
Population/Acre: 26.25
Goal DPA: 45
pPA: 8
WPA: 2
TPA: 2.14 (*1.4=3)
Military Units/acre: 14.11
D-specs/Acre (or elites used for defense): 9
Elites/Acre (or elites used for offense) 5.11
OPA: 30.66

I would say that Halfling has a better army, but is there much difference considering other bonuses? Either way, attacking isn't the strong point for either race, but let's not pretend that Halfer is a leg behind Elf.

[MrC-TheAncients]

Orcs got it bad this age, thats for sure. They lost their elite training creds, they lost plague, they received -20% thievery + magic. That nerf is too big and surprising. They do still have 9/2 elites & 30% gains, but come on ? Atleast give them some extra gains in return instead of just kicking them in the nuts like that...