Undead Tactician Science pump.

[spamely]

As an undead tactician, should i convert into 30 banks, 30 schools to pump science. or do i just keep an aggressive build to perform learn attacks.

[kit]

I hope you won't mind if I add a related question. What is an optimal Books Per Acre for an undead (non-sage)? The one the undead should try to achieve.

[E_Boko]

as much as possible. same as any other province.

you shouldnt convert to pump science this late in the age. undead are financially fit to be able to learn science throughout the age except when in war. but you dont need more then 25% schools with 20-30% banks for a good pump as long as the BE is good enough.

also while you make your own science just learn like a mad man. pick your targets semi wisely. you know elves and faeries have the sci you want. humans tend to have a lot as well.

[Nobody]

I've seen some fairly impressive sci on undeads... and they aren't "pumping science" they are using an aggressive regular build and just learning people for science.

[E_Boko]

/me agrees with nobody.

[kit]

I will rephrase my question a bit then. At what BpA does science give more networth than it's worth? We all know the non-linear effects of the science, and undeads having -% sci efficiency, there should be a certain bpa, when sci is no longer worth the networth it gives.

[Bishop]

i think someone worked out that it was a ridiculously high amount - like 1 million bpa.

[E_Boko]

1 million books gives you 10.8K NW. if you had 1 mil books on just alchemy at 1000 acres that would have 35.4% more income. normal provinces would get 44.27% income. if thats worth it to you then you could get 1 million books in each category except food. almost 64.8K more NW but you would have 35% more income, 35% more gains (better then orc), 16.44% more peasants, 151.78% to thievery and magic, 25.29% more BE.

lets say you had a 2tpa and 2 wpa. that would be boosted to 5 mod of each. if you tried to reach that without science that would be 3K more thiefs and 3K more wizards which at 4 NW a piece is already 24K NW.

im not sure what the threshold is where science isnt worth having but its definetly so high up nobody can reach it anyway so get as much as you can.

EDIT: in my example thats 6 mil books which is only a 6000 BPA. a million BPA is just ridiculous lol but like i said its so high no one can achieve it in an age.

[Bishop]

1 million books per acre - thats not what you calced. It would be over 400% alc sci easily

[kit]

Thanks a lot EJade. That answers my question completely.

[Ethan]

I'd done old calcs and found these to be loose guidelines for a sage with 30% libs - non sage will also be somewhat close though a bit lower I think. Run for an old human A/T sage (back when human had the sci bonus, not the sage part.)
All these values are the point at which the increased NW/A outweighs the extra military you can gain from rebalancing your other stats to the same value. Aka, the "max".

Alchemy........ 2,500 bpa
Tools ........... 2,500 bpa
Housing......... 10,000 bpa
Food ........... 100 bpa
Military.......... unknown
Crime............ 500 bpa
Channeling..... 500 bpa

Note how low food is, and how high housing is. Channeling saves spare as well as lowers the raw wpa needed, so it was (almost?) as good for an A/T as thievery itself. (I do think I only assume 10-12 mod tpa) I have no way to evaluate military science as a conversion into direct military strength - there is no building you can "save space in" from increased gains. (Compare farms, towers, or everything due to BE sci)

Note the higher the military sci, the more NW the land "has" fixed - very high military sci totals will increase these values, especially the housing sci. I think I was assuming it was about 10% of the total, so 1500 to 2000 bpa.


I point out, has 1,000,000 bpa been meant as a number (as opposed to a representative "really big number") your province would be over 10,000 nw/a from science alone, and would probably hit over 12,500 with all the other items. Whereas you'd have +1164% housing sci max (sage, 50% libs, 100% housing), so you've got less than 370 ppa to defend your 10,000+ nw/a. Assuming 100% defense with 150% DME somehow... we get to .22 DPNW - low, but ok of an aggressive attacker... but this prov has no offense, and we made some rounding up assumptions so it isn't even that good.

In short - if you ever find yourself with 1 million bpa - save all sci points, and try to at least quadruple in size within the next day or two. (Probably when the land from your last hit arrives... unless you are dead by then.)

[Lestat]

The science is waiting for you out there, just reach out and take it. Don't be a mug and learn it yourself.

[kbone]

lol I would love having 1 mil bpa, that sounds so broken. who needs def, no one could attack you with NW based gains, youd explore ftw!

[E_Boko]

science science science. i tell my ppl you can never have enough. only the special listen to me though lol

im with lestats. 75% of my science is "learned". lol. poor faeries and elves.

[sacredorange]

Ethan - an A/T would be running TD's and getting the theivery bonus from that as well. Since guilds don't offer the same benefit you'd want a much more disproportionate ratio between thief sci and magic sci. I don't know exactly how much but if you have any TD's it'll definitely be significant.