homes

[bbsgs]

hmm I think that having high homes can make us to have higher opa and dpa but it will increase our nwpa too because we're training more army rather than make them more efficient with tg and fort.

actually, do networth affect much in terms of gain and loss?

[Palem]

We have nw-based gains.

lol @ all of this and everyone involved.

[gojete]

Well my findings on gains are this.

The max gains come from attacking people that are 10% bigger or smaller than your own province.

I think gains in trad march, are capped at 20% of the province with the smallest acres.

If you are 1500 acres, and hit on someone that is 1700 acres, and both of you have the same networth, or 10% difference. If you hit for max gains it would be 20% of your own acre size, and not the enemy.

That would be a gain of 300 acres . IF the province of 1700 acres hits you , he would also gain 300 acres.

Am i right or wrong ?

Ah yeah But if you hit him first for 300, and he goes down to 1400 acres, then he is only going to be able to retal on you for the 20% of 1400, which is 280 acres .

[DjTeddySpin]

Gojete have you tried running numbers instead of saying oh-see-i-won-wars-so-my-strat-is-good.

High homes is by far the funniest debate I have seen on utopia all these years.

[Ethan]

I'm guessing you missed 1/92 = .92. That made this one look lame in comparison. Imagine everything gojete has written, then remove any useful ideas or game understanding (see his last post - a poor explanation of gains, but fundamentally correct.) and replace it with garbled math, most of it so bad most middle-schoolers would know it was total bunk. That was vines at his peak. I kid you not, I only know of 1 thing in something like 100+ posts I'd read of vines that made me think at all. And, as you'll note, I tend to see the sense in almost anything written - I've found 4-5 by gojete in this thread alone.

[gojete]

noo, What do you mean a poor explanation, thats all you need to know for starters.

if you had high homes and an avian cleric running 30% reduced times from barracks and 40% less losses from guard stations, you could not only hit the guy once, but once he retals, double tap him , and have your armies back home before his, 3 full trad marches on the enemy province, vs one of his.

You dont need to go to war to have fun either, even if you are in a kd that is not active, you can have fun in 1vs1 , When your kd see your activity and that you fight hard and struggle , and you get chained and you come back, they will man up and start covering your back and doing their best . Because the highest honor is that of fighting to protect your kingdom mates and retal in their name and crush those who try to hurt them .

djteddy , i run my numbers in game . I build with accelerated construction and builders boon, and train the armies with accelerated training and inspire army.
I draft 80% sometimes 70% and ask for soldiers to not waste time, then i accelerate train all into leets, or off specs, or def specs.
After i see the numbers i test them, when i had 250 opa i quad tapped some fool with 4 razes that was bigger than me.
I ran 80% thieves to test if the enemy could get my throne page, and they did . released everything ,razed everything, and again rebuild and retrain with a diff strat to see what it gives .

I built 80% guilds , went fortify, did science pump, come out of fortify, war, fb 60% peasants of provinces 10 times my size. And so on. I test the numbers in the heat of battle .

[Ordray]

@gojete: http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0

A 20% mod on your offense/defense is huge. How many homes do you have to have to increase your elites by 20%? And how is that impacting your NW? Higher numbers of elites will produce a higher raw offense, but it will also inflate your NW incredibly high, whereas increasing your original elites effectiveness by 20% will produce the same result for 0 NW increase. Then you go to gains, and you've got a potential problem. If you've got an inflated NW, then you're going to have to hit harder and larger targets with that 20% larger army than with the 20% more effective army. Effectiveness boost > numeric boost of the same %.

[E_Boko]

lmfao....i actually spit out diet pepsi on the keyboard through my nose no less.

look at like this gojete 20% homes on a 1000 acre province. lets imagine they have 80opa and 40 dpa since its standard for attackers. 20% homes is 1600 extra pop. so if you put that extra pop into avian leets like you want thats an extra 12,800 off or a 92.8K opa now. if you had JUST 12% TG at 100 BE you would have the same extra 12,800 off. the difference would be that you have 8% more buildings to use elsewhere for more TG or forts, or banks or whatever AND you have 1600 less leets in your province bringing your total NW down. so higher off at a lower NW is win.

now there are other factors to look at like getting the 100 BE for instance but even then 16% TG at 80 BE has the same effect and that still leaves more space for other buildings. numbers are all relative to what effect you want but if you want to have a strong province, high homes doesnt cut it.

[gojete]

what 20% homes at 1000 acres?
and what 20% modified offense ?

what do you mean, what did i say? I dont understand your posts

[E_Boko]

im saying take 20% of your land at 1000 acres and compare having 20% homes vs 20% anything else. 20% is 200 acres. i was giving you a scenario to use.

i never mentioned 20% modified off but modified off is the off you have after multiplying all the mods to your raw off. if i had 10K avian leets thats worth 80K raw off. if i had 12% TG at 100 BE, that gives me 16% mod off. that translates into having 80,000 * 1.16 = 92,800 mod off. for you to get that type of off WITHOUT any type of mods you would need 92,800 / 8 = 11,600 avian leets.

meanwhile i need only 10K avian leets to have the SAME off as you but unlike you i used only 12% of my land to do it while you needed 20% land dedicated to homes. do you see how other buildings are better then high homes now? you save building space and you get more offense with less networth added to your province.

[gojete]

Ahh,ahaha .

I dont know its too much speculation

I was thinking about that the other day but it was too much to suppose, thats why i stopped running numbers in the calculator because i couldnt make sense out of it . Every time i project something , it wasnt true in game.
I can see that the offense of double wages, multiplied by TG can add to.
But i never had space for training grounds and the increased offense wasnt that good in practice
I Couldnt keep my BE at 100 with anyless than 40% to 50% homes. So the space was very reduced.

basically 1000 acres, 500 homes . 16500 soldiers
then 500 buildings times 25 = 12,500 peasants, draft 65% of that 8125 more soldiers

1500 wizards, 3,000 thieves for raw 3 tpa , 9000 def specs 45,000 defense , 11,125 elites 89,000 offense .

So with 50% homes, and 50% whatever else buildings
1.5 wpa, 3 raw tpa, 45 dpa and 89 opa, Without any science or modifier.

I myself liike speed, so when i had the avian warrior running -15% reduced attack times. I went for 30% reduced attack times from barracks and -50% military losses from hospitals .

That was one of my initial high homes builds, it was very fun . I hit a lot . I had higher opa than 90 i think it was around 100. But i wanted more . Which led me to go 70% homes

7000 homes times 33 = 23,100 soldiers
300 buildings times 25 = 7500 pop draft 65% of that = 4875 soldiers

1500 wizards, 3000 thieves , 9000 def specs 45,000 defense , 14,475 elites = 115,800 ofense,
1.5 wpa, 3 tpa , 45 dpa, 115 opa

Adding 20% homes from 50% to 70% gave and increase of raw 26800 offense, thats 26.8 opa more due to 20% homes.

So in this case
89,000 = 100
115,800 = ?

115,8000 times 100 / 89,000 = 130.11

20% homes increased the raw offense by 30%

[gojete]

Avian warrior was not the best high homes civ, you can see the problems, economy and losses etc. But an avian cleric can run 70% homes, 20% armouries and rest farms / watch towers . ITs a very basic and primitive build, but imagine if you just began playing the game,and run this strat.
It gives good numbers, good attack times, keeps your army alive and well. You will pretty much be an alright attacker in a dark ghetto where people cant coordinate a chain and so on . Even if your kd is bad, your province is alright , you can attack and practice and so on . Have fun.

I dont know whats going to happen with my dwarf sage, im hoping for 140% BE. Then i could use 5% training grounds and have a huge impact in the offense. We will see .

[KuhaN]

Rofl.

[Ordray]

Gojete, give me a quick 50% homes and 70% homes build for Avian/Cleric, and I'll prove your wrong about high homes. I'll run a comparison and post the OPA, DPA, income, and NW/A of both of your strats and compare it to one of my quick setups. Give me only the build strat, goal DPA, and the draft used in each. I'll keep honor rank, land size, and science constant across all 3.

P.S. The 20% number was one that I pulled out of my head. @82.8% BE, it takes about 21% TGs to increase your OME by 20+%. How many homes does it take to increase your elite count by 20%? According to my quick calc, it would take about 27.5% more homes to increase my number of elites by 20% for Avian/Cleric using 1.5rTPA, 45 goal DPA (using a base ME of 107.6% from double wages, MP cast, and 10.5% forts @82.8% BE,) 125 BPA in pop and BE science w/ 15% homes.

[Ordray]

Race: Avian Net Worth: 188294.7983
Personality: Cleric NW/A: 188.2947983
OPA: 100.2737721 DPA w/elites: 86.78495759
Max OPA(w/ generals): 112.3066247 DPA w/o elites: 45
OME: 1.297656 DME: 1.26164766