homes

[jasonmanley87]

I know I'm laughing at this too. High homes probably worked well back when everything was land based. Back when people talked in terms of OPA and DPA. Problem is when they changed over to everything being networth based, people like gojete and many many others still think of it in terms of opa and dpa.

Yes, higher homes will lead to more opa/dpa and some homes are probably good for be purposes, but I have calculated things for say a 50% home gnome, a race back then with bonuses and leets that suggested a high pop strategy like that. Terrible idea once I calculated everything because with that many extra troops, you're paying a really high amount in wages while not making nearly as much money because you'll be too cramped to put in a lot of armouries and banks in addition to whatever else you might need. Plus your NW inflated meaning higher NW targets who do things right can easily hit you for better gains.

The right ways to improve off and def are about what can do that while increasing nw not as much. tgs, forts, paying 200% wages, horses, sending extra generals into battle, some spells, etc all increase off and def without nearly the increase in nw that you would get by training tons of extra troops. Good players use ratios like opnw and dpnw ideally.

It also works say with thieves. I figured on one hand I could train more thieves. Or I could just build 10-15% td's and get the same bonus for less cost and less nw increase. And when sending them out to do ops, I can send fewer thieves and lose fewer and not get caught as much.

Granted without homes and at typical draft rates, BE does take a hit, but it decreases quite slowly, and I've never felt a 90ish BE to be that bothersome anyway. The only way BE becomes a serious issue is when you run really high drafts, which in nw based gains you shouldn't really do much anyway. Plus there's also tools science to help make up for that.

There's of course also the point that in war, enemy mages will just fireball all those extra pezzies, and make the high homes strategies worthless, whereas with buildings that actually do something you can do stuff because the BE hit is by no means immediate.

[gojete]

Well those are the mos basic builds at 50% homes and 70% homes the ones i posted before.

Avian cleric 50% homes at 1000 acres
1.5 wpa, 3 raw tpa, 45 dpa (51 dpa 114% double wages ) and 89 opa ( 4 generals double wages 114% military eff 110,591 off)

The other 50% buildings are up to anyone. Lets say :
5% farms seem enough with 50% food science
8% WT with 50% crime science
8% guilds for buffs and anonymity
id go 20% barracks
and 9% whatever

There is a number that i wonder about ,

for example if 1000 acres times 25 buildings = 25,000 jobs
25,000 times .67 = 16750 peasants needed for 100% BE

But how many peasants needed for 90% and 80% BE ?


An undead cleric with high homes elite pump, running +130% BE doing a leet pump in fortify,hitting kds way smaller . for a min leet conversion of 8%, intra island

70% homes 26% barracks for reducced attack times of 37.5% ( multiply tactitian bonus ). Maybe the trad march time goes down to 8 hours, making it possible to do 3 trad marches a day, at 8% minimum conversion rate, in 3 days it would have already have converted a great deal of its leets .
High homes are very flexible

Usually in a long war when one gets fireballed and hit, bounces up and down , etc , even with 10% science BE goes down to 70%

at 70% BE 20% TG = 16.8 %offense
at 80% BE " =19.2 %
at 90% BE " = 21.6%
at 100%BE " = 24%
at 110%BE " =26.4 %
at 120%BE " = 28.8%
at 130% BE " = 31.2%
at 140% BE " =33.6%
at 150% BE " =36%

[gojete]

High homes work awesome in kds that are outside the top 100
The pezzie thing is not at all like that .

Running the numbers like this in calcualtor and so on is not the same as in real game, where i already tested high homes for 2 ages and they worked great and it was a lot easier to have good numbers. But its not the numbers, as much as the performance in and out of war . That one has a bigger and more powerful army than the average province , If combined with the right civ like avian cleric, or undead tactitian, one can beat the crap out of most other attackers .

Running it in game, and seeing it work, under several wars and conflicts out of war relations, is pretty much a better test than any factor that you can think about in your imagination.

One can sit there and theorize in how many ways it wont work, and all the flaws one thinks about it can have and what not, but having already ran them in the real world is better than virtual testing it in our heads .

[twitched]

"5% farms seem enough with 50% food science"

I ran 5% farms with 130% food sci on 32 ppa. with 50% homes, you're gonna need more farms.

[Che Guevara]

yes for a deep dark ghetto yes it is a good stat.
However if you want to improve age on age this stat wont work. you will be confined to hitting other ghettos staying at the same level. I don't think the kingdom in play in will every reach the 'top' as we don't have the hyperactivity to do that but we can have 7+ wars an age (winning and losing some) learning from each one.

How many times did you get PKed last age? did you not learn from each time what not to do? Getting better each time.

Not sure why you assume he was PK'd multiple times. Also, Homes are the PERFECT response to heavy FBing, as the birthrate increase will help you recover a lot faster (Assuming you get a kd-mate to take care of chastity, lol)

Also, I want to point out that strats that work in top kingdoms don't always work in ghettos. So when it was said that using real strats would allow you to pwn that much more, that's not guaranteed. Honestly, high-homes can be a useful strat in ghettos, better than the strats that a lot of the top kds run that would ONLY WORK if there were 20+ guys running the same basic strat and only work for bottomfeeding on the less active kingdoms.

[Che Guevara]

I know I'm laughing at this too. High homes probably worked well back when everything was land based. Back when people talked in terms of OPA and DPA. Problem is when they changed over to everything being networth based, people like gojete and many many others still think of it in terms of opa and dpa.

Yes, higher homes will lead to more opa/dpa and some homes are probably good for be purposes, but I have calculated things for say a 50% home gnome, a race back then with bonuses and leets that suggested a high pop strategy like that. Terrible idea once I calculated everything because with that many extra troops, you're paying a really high amount in wages while not making nearly as much money because you'll be too cramped to put in a lot of armouries and banks in addition to whatever else you might need. Plus your NW inflated meaning higher NW targets who do things right can easily hit you for better gains.

The right ways to improve off and def are about what can do that while increasing nw not as much. tgs, forts, paying 200% wages, horses, sending extra generals into battle, some spells, etc all increase off and def without nearly the increase in nw that you would get by training tons of extra troops. Good players use ratios like opnw and dpnw ideally.

It also works say with thieves. I figured on one hand I could train more thieves. Or I could just build 10-15% td's and get the same bonus for less cost and less nw increase. And when sending them out to do ops, I can send fewer thieves and lose fewer and not get caught as much.

Granted without homes and at typical draft rates, BE does take a hit, but it decreases quite slowly, and I've never felt a 90ish BE to be that bothersome anyway. The only way BE becomes a serious issue is when you run really high drafts, which in nw based gains you shouldn't really do much anyway. Plus there's also tools science to help make up for that.

There's of course also the point that in war, enemy mages will just fireball all those extra pezzies, and make the high homes strategies worthless, whereas with buildings that actually do something you can do stuff because the BE hit is by no means immediate.

So a few fireballs are going to destroy the extra 5 elites per acres you are running? Or the extra thieves/wizards? No. All it will do is kill some pezzies, and lower your BE a bit, as you pointed out though, slowly. Then the extra 100% birthrate kicks in and you get your pezzies back up quite quickly.

Also, I don't understand why high draft would be shunned, even in the NW gains era. The amount of NW you'd be gaining from the extra troops is less than you'd be gaining by adding additional acres of built acres. That's why a well pumped province at 200-210nwpa is stronger than a province with the same NW and only 140nwpa. Since they are the same NW, the gains percent is the same, other than the pumped prov gets more acres for attacking the non-pumped prov.

[Ordray]

Plus your NW inflated meaning higher NW targets who do things right can easily hit you for better gains.

BS. A smaller province in acres will get better gains when attacking a larger acre province at the same NW level since the amount gained is a % of the total land of the target.

@gojete- How the heck are you getting 114% OME/DME? 200% wages gives you only 107.6%.
Peasants for 90% be would be the min needed for 100% *0.9
80% is min needed for 100% * 0.8

I'll post a comparison for you later. Right now, I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard...

P.S. message me when you're through beating up on the ghettos Gojete and are ready for a real war. Having a 7/7 record in the ghetto is like me bragging about beating my 7 year old cousin at arm wrestling. Not that impressive.

[Palem]

Not sure why you assume he was PK'd multiple times.

Assume? He said he was PK'ed like 6 times last age lol

[DDodge]

Many of you seem to ignore the main point that Gojete PREFACES ALL HIS POSTS WITH.

He promotes high homes for ghettos that are NOT in the top 100 KD's. In that frame of mind, all his points regarding the high OPA, high BE, and high economy that you can still manage with up to 75% draft are all accurate numbers that he's tested for two ages.

I feel like this arguement needs to be DEFINED. People keep rebuttling saying he is foolish and that his high homes strat wont work, but they are basing that off the assumption that it is being run in a top 50 KD.... Gojete himself has said that he does not promote it for even top 100 KD's.

People are arguing the same point but aren't clear of the terms and definitions of when/where/how the homes strategy is being run. I personally don't disagree with anything gojete says about high homes because i'm able to read properly and consider that he's talking about a build for a ghetto that will be very effective for that specific province.

Please tell me that makes sense to you guys.

[DjTeddySpin]

Many of you seem to ignore the main point that Gojete PREFACES ALL HIS POSTS WITH.

He promotes high homes for ghettos that are NOT in the top 100 KD's. In that frame of mind, all his points regarding the high OPA, high BE, and high economy that you can still manage with up to 75% draft are all accurate numbers that he's tested for two ages.

I feel like this arguement needs to be DEFINED. People keep rebuttling saying he is foolish and that his high homes strat wont work, but they are basing that off the assumption that it is being run in a top 50 KD.... Gojete himself has said that he does not promote it for even top 100 KD's.

People are arguing the same point but aren't clear of the terms and definitions of when/where/how the homes strategy is being run. I personally don't disagree with anything gojete says about high homes because i'm able to read properly and consider that he's talking about a build for a ghetto that will be very effective for that specific province.

Please tell me that makes sense to you guys.

As a webdesigner, I don't think any of my clients would be content that I build a website that targets only InternetExplorer. And how is it helping to improve anyone if you suggest them a strategy that can only work at the bottom and least competitive arena of the game? As far as the homes argument goes, this is a suggestion thread for improvements, and you're defeating that purpose by advising something that will only work if you are not improving and live at the bottom.

Its fine if he gives suggestions, but I don't think you should be raising an issue with people rebutting him.

[Al3x]

Not sure why you assume he was PK'd multiple times.

he has admitted to it multiple times Also,

Homes are the PERFECT response to heavy FBing, as the birthrate increase will help you recover a lot faster (Assuming you get a kd-mate to take care of chastity, lol)

agreed see one of my very first posts

I was a human sage so was able to minimize my home use running into a war. However if i so servery under pop i would put them in there to increase my BR

Also, I want to point out that strats that work in top kingdoms don't always work in ghettos. So when it was said that using real strats would allow you to pwn that much more, that's not guaranteed. Honestly, high-homes can be a useful strat in ghettos, better than the strats that a lot of the top kds run that would ONLY WORK if there were 20+ guys running the same basic strat and only work for bottomfeeding on the less active kingdoms.

Wrong in my kingdom you are free to run what ever build, race and personality you want and we rarely bottom feed but don't you only war the kingdoms you think you will win?

I have also said that high homes wouldn't work other than in the ghettos but why ask for/post suggestions if you don't want to better yourself.

Also last age(50) gojete's kingdom did better than mine the age before(49) I don't think we even made the top 100, but we adapt and evolve our strategies to better ourselves. we don't have uber activity as long as you can attack twice a day in war you are good to go.

People complain that there is not enough competitive kingdoms this is because some people don't want improve themselves or their kingdoms.

[gojete]

To compete in the top of this game, requires too many things that most ppl wont put up with.

This game is not properly built for top competition .
The game is made for fun, not for serious gameplay, unfit for most players to compete for the ranks. It is the games fault not the players . It is a structural flaw in the game, not a lack of want of the players to get better. If your goal is to have more people wanting to climb in the ranks, is the game itself that fails to deliver, not the players.

That said, the game is awesome, and it allows people to compete at their own level and have fun, without the need to want to get top 100. If we didnt want to compete we would not have 7 out of 7 . We ruled that age .
If you want to have a discussion about the million reasons why the game doesnt support professional gaming lets go.

But no flamming each other , and one problem most of you are making is that you are bringing your real life issues and problems into the table.

Your personal views and beliefs of what is better or worse are making you blind and you are taking a point of view, a stand, a position. And this things have no room in a dialogue, this is not a debate, i do not debate because its the most utterly wrong thing that one can do. It only causes conflict, its a stupid way , and proof of that is the mess in the world . Debating is one of the wrongest things ever created by mankind . Its nothing but an ego trip and has nothing to do with facts , but just with ideals and beliefs not with truth . Truth is we are alive, you can not debate that can you? You can only debate ideas and thoughts and unreal things , not reality nor truth not an actuality .

If you want to discuss about why that is so, im up for it too.

High homes is a highly efficient in and out of war build strat .

You guys are assuming that it doesnt work because thats your belief, and maybe you run a number or two in the calculator and whatever, i have tested many high homes strats in game, in the middle of the war, as a tm, as an attacker, as a hybrid , with farie, avian, halfling,orc, and now with dwarf .

You are failing to see in how many ways high homes is superior to a normal strat. If you want to discuss the way so many benefits of high homes lets do that with a beer in hand and having fun, just like we have fun in the game.

But get ridd of the prejudice and idealism you are bringing with you , if we are going to talk deep strategy and the many reasons why high homes is so good, theres no room for egos . High homes its not just a single strat, its way more than that, is a team oriented and kd strat , that can be used to make a kingdom more active and make the gameplay better and more competitive for a million reasons.

[Al3x]

gojete

I understand only a few can play at the 'top', I also understand that there are some very high activity strict kingdoms out there. That however only covers the top 25 kingdoms or so.

The kingdom I play in maybe a ghetto for some and a top kingdom for others we don't go for charts we play for fun. Most kingdom don't need you to be on IRC 24/7 give out your phone number and be up at 3am for a wave.

As long as you are active (log in twice a day min.) which with the amount you post on this form I'm sure you can do, you can play in a top 100 kingdom. If you can learn and adapt after every war your kingdom now can do this.

Yes getting beaten up every war/day/tick isn't fun, building yourself and your kingdom up and getting stronger reduces this.

[gojete]

Benefits of high homes are

Extreme easy friendliness , you can achieve great numbers right now , just get 45% homes 20% arms , rest what you want and youll have enough money to train your armies and thieves and be ready in no time. Forget about the long waits, the mistakes , go the right way go high homes.

Faster recovery times, in and out of war, if you get hit you can recover faster, from a nasty war,

Higher BE : higher BE allows you to use your buildings to the extreme .

example, right now ive got reduced attack times of 37.5%, with my dwarf sage, im dropping 4 attacks 8 hour times, with 4 generals, and can do 12 plunders a day.

High homes , allows you to have higher tpas and protect you from thieves, higher defense that most ppl in the ghetto who lives outside the top 100 .

With high homes, mages will move on to another target . With high homes you are a tank. It is the superior strat for the player that looks for trouble. You can have raw wpas of 2.5 , raw tpas of 4, and still put out 80 opa and 50 dpa army out . No one will bother you.

High homes fairy rogue , the ultimate TM, ubber defense, ubber tpa, ubber wpa. High homes fairy rogue is the ultimate build strat for the tm that wants the highest dpa in the server.

High homes promotes competitive play at your level, you will get better, you will play better, you wlll have more fun.
Whether you are a TM a heavy attacker a hybrid , whether you log in once a day or can drop 12 attacks a day like me, high homes will improve your gameplay faster and way better than running ANY non high homes strat in the ghetto .

Non ghetto strats are not made for the ghetto , if you belong outside the top 100, you will see instant results from high homes.


If you are tired of having a province that doesnt give you what you want, if you want to trash the enemy, and are not up to waiting several weeks in order to be ready,
and are not up to having to spend several ages learning the game, and learning how to balance your province, and how to balance tons of buildings and failing , ups and down bipolar depressive gameplay.

If you dont want to spend hours running numbers on a calculator or sim, and want instant hardcore action from a province that can beat the crap out of ppl with years in the game, and that is guaranteed to work 100% and has been tested and proved to work in 2 ages of constant warfare ,

Then go high homes and be constantly good and always ready for the fight . High homes is the superior strat .

Own the enemy

[Bishop]

45% homes 20% arms and 8 hour attack times?

Pull the other ones, its got bells on it.