High homes = bad

[Palem]

Let's say you're at 1000 acres with 5% pop science and you've played just like gojete does and overdrafted because you need less pezzies for a nice BE; say drafted up to 75%. You're running 50% homes.

You'll have these kinda numbers (for simplicities sake, everything is built, 1.5 raw wpa not halfer/faery, not accounting for honor. None of these things will effect the change that much)...
Current Pop: 30450
Max Pop: 30450
Pop in Military: 22838
Wizzies: 1500
Pezzies: 6112

Now, let's say you send your army out and the other kd hits you down to 450 acres (A real kd would not stop at 450 acres mind you). Adjusting your science due to the land drop you'll have 7.45% Pop science. You'll have numbers looking like this (not accounting for military losses, but again, they aren't significant enough to change the outcome.)...
Current Pop: 30450
Max Pop: 14022
Pop in Military (army out is not releasable): 22838
Wizzies: 1500
Pezzies: 6112

So you're 217% overpopped. Now by this point...
- You'll have 7% of your pezzies leaving per tick (428 pezzies)
- You'll have 20% of your military trying to desert on each tick (4567 troops)
- Your thieves will be refusing to work
- If you had any army at home, they will refuse to work
- You will have riots, -50% income.

So let's say you had 15k troops out on that attack and they'll be home in 10 hours. So you'll be losing 20% of your military per tick (not the army you have out). By the time your army gets back, any military you did have at home will be gone and you'll be down to 2958 pezzies. So even if you did do a land grab for say 150 acres and even got aid to train those acres AND you were on the same tick your army got home, you're looking at something like this...
Current Pop: 19458
Max Pop: 16263 (While your buildings are coming in), 18496 (when your buildings come in)
Pop in military: 15,000
Wizzies (if you chose to keep them): 1500
Pezzies: 2958

So now at this point you're STILL 120% overpopped and...
-Thieves still won't work
-Army still won't work/deserting
-You've got no thieves left

So on the next tick you'll be losing 3k troops, and 207 pezzies




Now I know what you're going to say. "That's just how good chaining and overpop is. That has nothing to do with high homes. A prov would be devastated either way." So let's compare...

1k acres
No homes
65% Draft
All else equal

Current Pop: 26250
Max Pop: 26250
Military: 17063
Wizzies: 1500
Pezzies: 7687

Now then, we'll say they send out 10k troops and still make that 150 acre hit. So you get chained down to 450 acres...

Current Pop: 26250
Max Pop: 11250
Military: 17063
Wizzies: 1500
Pezzies: 7687

So yea, you are still very much overpopped (233%) and will suffer from the typical overpop issues, and by the time your army gets home (allowing 10 hours like before) and you build up your acres you're looking at...

Current Pop: 15220
Max Pop: 14037 (buildings under construction), 15967 (buildings complete)
Military: 10000
Wizzies: 1500
Pezzies: 3720

Much less severe overpopping. Your thieves will work (if you have any), you can send your army out without waiting and they aren't deserting and by the time your buildings are complete you'll be underpopped.

The most important factor here is that the chain stopped at 450 acres. Good kds will knock you far below that if you're starting at 1k acres, but even at 450 acres the effects of high homes and overpopulation are very clear.

High homes is a setup for disaster if you're actually willing to grow a pair and war a real kd that knows how to war and not a bunch of ghettos that don't know what they're doing.

Saying that high homes is a good strategy because you can beat ghettos with it is like saying a good opening move for chess is a rook pawn because you can beat beginners on yahoo chess with it.

I've tried high homes for myself. I tried it at it's very best. Halfer/freak (still 5/4 bonus) with 40% homes and the minute I ran into an actual war I fell like a ton of bricks.

Can we be done with this now?

[Ordray]

Can we be done with this now?

lol Not until Gojete wars someone who actually knows what they're doing and gets himself chained.

[spamely]

Gojete defends (with a certain degree of validity) that his strats are ONLY geared for ghetto bashing. They work for him, and frankly that is fine. the problem is when those are compared to 0-10% home strats. and people think about considering one over the other.

if you want to play even slightly seriously, you must consider NW bloat, and chain protection. if you just want to goof around in the ghetto then feel free to run high home faery heavy attackers or dwarf super thieves. nobody will try to stop you because nobody cares. and if you are active enough and only mess with 0/0 kingdoms you WILL be fine and come out on top.

in short. High homes is NOT a viable strategy (key word being strategy). but there is no reason why you CAN'T run 'em and have fun with em.

[DHaran]

If using bad strategies is fun for you, go for it spamely. You should always strive to be the worst at whatever you do, as long as you have fun doing it, right?

[Palem]

I'm fine with that spamely, but I'm not fine with advertising it as a good strategy. It's not.

I would have a lot of fun playing a Faery A/M, but even if I did that and had some success I wouldn't advertise it as a good strategy.

Ghetto success does NOT require strategy, so just because something works in the ghettos doesn't mean it's a good strategy. You could prolly get away with running 0 wizards in a ghetto. Does that make it a good strategy? Absolutely not.

[Steel]

I'm not sure about now, but a few years ago some of our more mathematically inclined players decided that Homes were most effective at like 21%.

50% Homes doesn't make any sense to anyone I don't think.

[spamely]

I fully agree with ya palem.

[twitched]

"you must consider NW bloat"

rarely comes into effect.

[gojete]

Im conducting new experiments in the high homes area.
It appears that more and more people are experimenting with high homes, and finding results and strategies and ways to use them.

I encourage everyone who can to test high homes and see the results.
Why dont you come here and post your results as well.

Id like everyone to test them at their level and see the results .

Writing numbers in the screen is alright, but when it comes down to it, either you have tried them or not . And one finds many interesting things from trying .

A lot of people seem to be plundering my farms lately, and it makes me real mad, i trying to fund some dragons here, and everyone seems to going farm after farm right when they come oop, which is not cool.

If i catch you hitting my farms , ill be forced to use my 37.5 reduced attack speed and wave you myself to misery . Watch out .

[Jeeps]

You could prolly get away with running 0 wizards in a ghetto.

Doubtful sir =P

[octobrev]

You wont see it coming into effect in the ghetto twitched. That was the Palem's whole point. He's a pretty smart guy and also a moderator so you can accept anything he says as facts

[Realest]

I told you guys 2 years ago, Homes are a terrible war building.

[spamely]

the point that should be stressed is that homes are an often necessarily evil; NOT a magic building. They keep your BE from plummeting if it is about to nd can raise your raw peeps per acre when you absolutely need them (hybrids maybe). However if your BE is lovely already, your econ is solid and you have enough ppls to fulfill your role(s) properly then you haven't a need for them.

I tried to run a homeless halfer and found my army was FAR to anemic to do so. however as i've begun pumping science i have managed to keep number as low as 10% and hope to bring em further down in the future.

[octobrev]

There's nothing 50% homes can do that a single trad march can't do better. Case closed.

[Dragonite]

Well here are my thoughts, and make sure you pay attention before you automatically assume i dont know what i am talking about. Because I guarantee I know what I'm talking about.

I disagree. For one, if you have that much more population, it would not be that easy to chain you. You'll have much more defense and offense. From point A you would have to send A LOT more offense to chain down a person running high homes which you did not factor in.. If everybody in the kingdom ran a high homes strategy then the kingdom you are playing against will be SUICIDING to break you. Even if they kill one person, the others would double-triple tap with much, much ease. You forget to factor in all the variables Palem.

And quite frankly, who cares about chaining? If you chain anyone then they will die neways, who dies less or more is not the problem. The problem lies in how you PREVENT chaining, and if you run high homes then you'll largely prevent chaining, by making your enemies either A.) having to suicide or B.) conquesting, which both are obviously very bad.

Its funny, you pros think you are so good, but you forget to factor in all variables.