Raze / Massacre

[Quacky-T]

Are these attacks counted as gains ? I Mean are they affected by Orc bonus ? Will their effect be cut by 50% if one chooses to raze or massacre someone who is in fortified ?

[Bishop]

Raze isn't.

[ashvillian]

Raze may or may not be effected by gains.. Odds are they ARE effected, despite the above post, but I cant guarantee you that because I havent tested it or seen definitive proof. There is no telling unless you or someone else has tested it for yourselves. There is no real guide to the game and its mechanics so the coders or developers are probably the only ones that could tell you for sure. What I can tell you for a certainty is that "Gains" do affect the amount of peasants, theives and wizards killed on a massacre.. As for razes dont trust word of mouth without proof no matter what the person's join date or amount of posts are^. They could be talking out of their asses. I relented from playing Orc last age because I trusted a certain Moderators post regarding the gains and massacres when he stated (paraphrasing): "You dont gain anything on a massacre.. so gains dont affect them.." when it turned out that was total bull**** and his advice was about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

As for attacking into Fortified I am fairly confident the gains penalty effects ALL attacks. The only one I cannot say for sure is Razes but more than likely they are reduced aswell. Keep in mind this Era (according to what I have read that is; you really cant be too sure with the accuracy of anything you see posted regarding this game) they have changed up Fortified; bringing back the "-50% Gains (Attacking In)" perk but it will come in gradually on a sliding scale.. Meaning it will take 24hrs before the KD gets the WHOLE -50% gains protection. So it probably breaks down to something like -2.08333 gains (Attacking In) per hour after the stance is activated.

[Bishop]

Massacres shouldn't be affected by gains, it never was before.

[ashvillian]

I can assure you they most certainly are.. Ever try to compete with an Orc's 'Massacre' yeilds as a non-Orc?

Example: Age 51, OOW, Undead w/ +12% Gains sci and within 5% NW of target Massacres yeilding 1,090 peasant, theif and wizard deaths. - so, next Tick hits w/ no target activity, targets peasants do not grow because of Chast & actually go down further because of MS & Storms, No aid is sent to target before next hit, so.. - Still OOW, Orc/Sage w/ +40.5% Gains sci and within the same 5% NW of target Massacres yeilding 1,599 peasant, theif and wizard deaths. If gains didnt effect the amount of kills on Massacres then by all logic the second massacre should have yeilded significantly less than the first when in fact it gained around 60% more, more or less in accordance with the gains of the Orc.

Off topic slightly, @Bishop: If you truly believed that Massacre's arent affected by Gains (even though youre mistaken) then why wouldnt you just say that in your first post? You half-ass answered his first question then totally ignored his second question about Fortified.. It would have taken 30 seconds longer to give him a complete answer. Its that kinda two-worder **** that really irks me about you. People look up to you and the other Mods for advice and take your word for as good as gold. (I did at one point atleast) You could atleast TRY to put forth a little more effort than your typical 10-letter posts suggest.

[Bishop]

I don't have time to write long posts - and i don't like wasting time when a short sentence will do.

A lesson in reading comprehension - i said "should". I can assure you 100% that massacres on the old code were not ever intended to be affected by Orcs + gains bonus. I have not seen any post since then that indicated that orcs gains bonuses should now affect massacres. If they are being affected by the + gains then we have an issue.

[UtoCasual]

Assuming the gains formula in the wiki is correct, which in and of itself could be a dangerous thing:

Gains = Target Resource * Attack Type * PNF * KNF * GBP * GS * Race * Stance * Relations * Science * Target Stance

I would assume mass is affected by Orc bonus, because it says 'target resource' which doesn't necesarily indicate you have to 'gain' anything at all.

Also the Mass entry says:

"Base gains are 9.5% peasants, 8.5% thieves and 5% wizards"

So it seems, to my understanding of how that's worded, that Mass effects are treated as 'Gains' and Pezzies, Thieves and Wizzies are treated as 'Target Resources' and hence also affected.

I don't have the exact figures to hand, but I'm also pretty sure the Orcs in our KD's mass 'gains' were affected by the bonus last age.

[Bishop]

It wouldn't surprise me to see something working contrary to what was announced by Mehul. I'll see when the devs come in if they can check the old code and verify it but i am quite sure that mehul stated explicitly that massacre was not a "gain" and should be unaffected. Ashvillans example shows quite clearly that it is affecting that attack though - and this is not how the bonus should work.

The question is, did Mehul make a mistake, did he change the mechanics without an announcement or did our devs change it?

[dream2]

maybe that orc have bloodlust on?or bloodlust+bg?Or maybe bl+bg+pf?

[Palar]

Those all modify military losses, I don't see how that would affect wizzies/peassies/thieves

[dream2]

I see, I thought those did effect massacre lol

[ashvillian]

I don't have time to write long posts - and i don't like wasting time when a short sentence will do.

A lesson in reading comprehension - i said "should". I can assure you 100% that massacres on the old code were not ever intended to be affected by Orcs + gains bonus. I have not seen any post since then that indicated that orcs gains bonuses should now affect massacres. If they are being affected by the + gains then we have an issue.

Yet you have time to give me "a lesson in reading comprehension"? Thanks for learnin' this dumb hillybilly, boss! You cant be that busy obviously. If you dont like wasting time answering questions then dont. You waste alot more time when someone has to follow up to get a complete answer because you feel two words that are only relevent to 1/3 of the question posed "will do". AnyHOW-WhenInDOUBT...

The coding was apparently changed somewhere along the lines then, according to what you have stated, Bishop. The Orc's 'Gains' perk does indeed; atleast as of last age, affect 'Massacre' yields and I am very confident Mil sci applies to Mass. yields aswell. There would be no other way of hitting the kind of numbers I have seen, even with the +30% from Orc if not for '+Gains' from science. Which is only right that it should. Unless Mehul or somebody else made a mistake somewhere along the lines, would that not indicate the devs overrode that mechanic and allowed '+Gains' to affect Massacres (and Razes, possibly)? If the former, we are screwed because they will correct the "mistake" and we never shoulda opened our cotton-pickin', naner-lovin' mouths. If the latter then some coder somewhere is likeminded and agrees that these attacks should be affects by '+Gains' which would be great. If nothing else just change the wording to "+Yields" or something like that to keep the anal people from *****in'. You know who you are. o_o