Thoughts from a Vet

[Gallowmere]

No, it is not a responsibility, it is tyranny. NATO is a defense pact and they cannot justify what they did.

Precisely. No matter what context someone tries to use 'world police' in, the fact is that it was intended for a grouped defense response. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it's anyone's responsibility to get involved in conflicts, except for the countries directly involved, but that is beside the point here (and things like that are also how world wars gets started...phone a friend war lines, for lack of a better way to put it). It was a unilaterally aggressive act to stomp out someone that was causing 'problems' for the west.

There are a lot of ruthless dictators in sub-Saharan Africa but I've yet to see NATO put an end to those regimes. Why? Because whatever those countries have to offer to NATO members, they can get without getting rid of those dictators.

I couldn't have said it better. I hate to use the old cliched 'blood for oil' argument, but that is precisely what we are seeing here. See my point about Ghaddafi earlier. He became a target of the western world over oil price increases a LONG time ago.

Having NATO's blessing on ops is similar to the drunk that beats his wife telling you that stealing is perfectly fine.

[Scott250]

Precisely. No matter what context someone tries to use 'world police' in, the fact is that it was intended for a grouped defense response. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it's anyone's responsibility to get involved in conflicts, except for the countries directly involved, but that is beside the point here (and things like that are also how world wars gets started...phone a friend war lines, for lack of a better way to put it). It was a unilaterally aggressive act to stomp out someone that was causing 'problems' for the west.



I couldn't have said it better. I hate to use the old cliched 'blood for oil' argument, but that is precisely what we are seeing here. See my point about Ghaddafi earlier. He became a target of the western world over oil price increases a LONG time ago.

Having NATO's blessing on ops is similar to the drunk that beats his wife telling you that stealing is perfectly fine.

Cadaffy was placed on the target list in 88 or 89 when he fired on US military causing the first conflict

[Gallowmere]

Mmhmm...yet somehow, he was practically forgotten about for over 15 years. The entire thing reeks of opportunistic imperialism.

But since you feel completely justified in the assault on that state, no matter what I say, let's go with this one. How about Anwar al-Awlaki (who was an American citizen by the way, and was executed without trial) and his family members who were systematically assassinated by drone attacks?

[Scott250]

Mmhmm...yet somehow, he was practically forgotten about for over 15 years. The entire thing reeks of opportunistic imperialism.

But since you feel completely justified in the assault on that state, no matter what I say, let's go with this one. How about Anwar al-Awlaki (who was an American citizen by the way, and was executed without trial) and his family members who were systematically assassinated by drone attacks?

Awlaki and his son was kill by a drone in Yeneb. Awlaki got his citizenship illegally. He was not born a US citizen, he was born in Yemen and he lied and said he was from Mexico so he could obtain a visa and was able to get a $20,000 scholarship over that fraudulent act. he was a mentor to Ben Laden and a recruiter for al Quiada and had involvements in bombing and bombing attempts in the US, Germany, London and Canada And was placed on the top of the list as the most dangerous man in the world. he potreyed to be a spiritual leader to help prepare peoples minds to kill or to prepare them for death for the murders they are about to commit.

I don't quite know what your trying to get at on this guy. he was a terrible person

[Ryshad]

Awlaki was deamed a terrorist by the USA. So we killed him. Enough said.
Gallowmere your tag says you are from Virgina. I am assuming as vocal as you are in here that you chose to voice our opinion in public as well an actually VOTE. If that assumption is correct - you are welcome, I was one of those 'killers' that helped insure you continue to have the right to vote, an bad mouth the country AND the service men/women that protect you.And just so you know - YOU elected those people that sent me overseas to do the things THIS nation felt needed to be done. It was YOUR vote that put me in harms way. It was YOUR tax dollars that paid THIS KILLERS wages. It was YOUR vote that got my brother an my buddies killed. Its ok though, I don't hold a grudge ... matter of fact if asked to do it again I would. You aren't free? If you weren't free you would have already been dragged out of your house, shot for sedition in your front yard an left for the neighbor hood dogs to feast on ... oh, wait ..... that's just what I witnessed in the part of the world that YOU paid me to be in, sent to by the people YOU elected to lead this country. No right to be there? You seriously going tell me that if you are the only one in your neighborhood with a gun an some gang member comes around an starts raping your neighbor that you aren't going to stop it? Oh, wait ... you are gonna call the police aren't you?
What a damn joke that people can sit on their high horse an make morale judgements about people and things they know NOTHING about. Get out from behind your computer an go see for yourself whats going on in the real world, then maybe we can have a realistic conversation about morals. Oh, wait ... I suppose you aren't suppose to be there either though are you?

[Bishop]

You have a choice where your tax money goes in America? I wish we had that here.

It clearly wasn't his vote, or anything he did that forced you to make the decisions you made Ryshad. I would imagine one major gripe the anti-war faction has is that the actions of others are associated with them, and you are doing this now.

Do I need to have shot someone in the face to be able to make a decision about killing? Perhaps juries should be selected based on experience - thieves tried by other thieves? Bad argument Ryshad.

"Get out from behind your computer an go see for yourself whats going on in the real world, then maybe we can have a realistic conversation about morals."

Morality is not defined by experience.

[Gallowmere]

Awlaki was deamed a terrorist by the USA. So we killed him. Enough said.
Gallowmere your tag says you are from Virgina. I am assuming as vocal as you are in here that you chose to voice our opinion in public as well an actually VOTE. If that assumption is correct - you are welcome, I was one of those 'killers' that helped insure you continue to have the right to vote, an bad mouth the country AND the service men/women that protect you.And just so you know - YOU elected those people that sent me overseas to do the things THIS nation felt needed to be done. It was YOUR vote that put me in harms way. It was YOUR tax dollars that paid THIS KILLERS wages. It was YOUR vote that got my brother an my buddies killed. Its ok though, I don't hold a grudge ... matter of fact if asked to do it again I would. You aren't free? If you weren't free you would have already been dragged out of your house, shot for sedition in your front yard an left for the neighbor hood dogs to feast on ... oh, wait ..... that's just what I witnessed in the part of the world that YOU paid me to be in, sent to by the people YOU elected to lead this country. No right to be there? You seriously going tell me that if you are the only one in your neighborhood with a gun an some gang member comes around an starts raping your neighbor that you aren't going to stop it? Oh, wait ... you are gonna call the police aren't you?
What a damn joke that people can sit on their high horse an make morale judgements about people and things they know NOTHING about. Get out from behind your computer an go see for yourself whats going on in the real world, then maybe we can have a realistic conversation about morals. Oh, wait ... I suppose you aren't suppose to be there either though are you?

A: Deemed a terrorist, eh? Under U.S. law the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents...you do realize that makes all of our troops who have killed civilians in other countries terrorists, right? Also, I am fairly certain that his (young) teenage nephew was not involved in such. I could be wrong, but it seems like a solid bet.

B: you missed every point I made entirely. I am against acts of aggression, PERIOD. Neighbor being raped? Yeah, something should probably be done about that. Someone is violating his/her right to be left the hell alone, and in the most disgusting way possible. I am also not violating her rights in the process of protecting her. We are. We are violating the rights of sovereign nations by 'protecting them from themselves'. By your logic, what I should actually be doing is killing the guy raping her, then lecturing her for 30 minutes on how the rape was her own fault, then killing her as well.

C: no, I don't vote, which gives me more right to ***** than the people who do. Why? Because I know what these imperial, political jerk offs do with their spare time, and I refuse to support that, even at the ballot. They figure out ways to piss away the money of all of our citizens killing people that none of us should even remotely worry about.

D: no, if I were free, I wouldn't have been forced to pay part of your salary while you were in another country doing something that I disagree with. If I were free, I wouldn't be handing off a third of my paycheck every week so some old broad I have never met can afford to not work, and don't even get me started on the unemployment/food stamp programs. I am the 'if you don't work, you don't eat' guy in the room.

You come across as one of those people who have bought into the 'American dream' **** so much that it is irreparable at this point. I hope that isn't the case, but it appears to be.

@Scott- you'll believe anything you are fed through official channels, won't you? Funny how he did aaaaaaall of this **** over a period of years, but no one even caught on in the slightest, until he started making noise and pissing people here off, about how the treatment of the Muslim people in this country after 9/11 was completely unacceptable.

[The Imp]

I am the 'if you don't work, you don't eat' guy in the room

Only thing you say in the whole post i don't really agree with is this, because work is often hard to find, and even harder to find is work worth doing when factoring in travel costs - see poverty trap.

I am a person that values brotherhood and community, and believe in this we are only as strong as our weakest link. So we must help the weak link when times are hard for them, this includes disabilitys and the like. Obviously if you are scrounging off the community - in so purposely weakening it, then you do not deserve the help that would otherwise be offered.

[Gallowmere]

Only thing you say in the whole post i don't really agree with is this, because work is often hard to find, and even harder to find is work worth doing when factoring in travel costs - see poverty trap.

I am a person that values brotherhood and community, and believe in this we are only as strong as our weakest link. So we must help the weak link when times are hard for them, this includes disabilitys and the like. Obviously if you are scrounging off the community - in so purposely weakening it, then you do not deserve the help that would otherwise be offered.

Very true, but where does one draw that line between 'scrounging' and needed help? It's almost impossible to, because very few people will publicly admit to being parasites, even if they know they are. For example, I do know some previously hard working people who have now been unemployed for close to two years now. Partially the fault of the economy, BUT also partially their own fault. Why? They refuse to take jobs that are 'below them', because the unemployment they collect is worth just as much as they would make at a subpar job. These people are the ones that I hope are allowed to starve once their unemployment benefits run out.

[The Imp]

the unemployment they collect is worth just as much as they would make at a subpar job

This is a problem with the system, it provides no motivation (even though the individual should have enough self-motivation)

For me it all comes down to a lack of life education and discipline from a very young age.

As for differentiating potential from parasites, i am the kind of person that see's potential in everyone. 2 years is a long time and will get you stuck in bad routines - this then refers to an earlier point about lack of motivation to change.

[Ryshad]

"C: no, I don't vote, which gives me more right to ***** than the people who do. Why? Because I know what these imperial, political jerk offs do with their spare time, and I refuse to support that, even at the ballot. They figure out ways to piss away the money of all of our citizens killing people that none of us should even remotely worry about."

No, not voting doesn't give you more of a right to ***** then everyone else, it gives you less. If you choose to not have a voice in how things are done in this country that is fine, don't sit back with your lazy arguements about things being wrong though when you voluntarily allow others to make decisions for you.

"Do I need to have shot someone in the face to be able to make a decision about killing? Perhaps juries should be selected based on experience - thieves tried by other thieves? Bad argument Ryshad."

This is ridiculous. Never said anything close to that. Nice way to try to twist what I say to suit your needs though. Try harder again next time.


"It clearly wasn't his vote, or anything he did that forced you to make the decisions you made Ryshad. I would imagine one major gripe the anti-war faction has is that the actions of others are associated with them, and you are doing this now."

You are right, it was not his vote. He would rather sit around baying about how terrible the world is an judging others for their actions instead of getting off his duff an changing it.


"A: Deemed a terrorist, eh? Under U.S. law the term ?terrorism? means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents...you do realize that makes all of our troops who have killed civilians in other countries terrorists, right? Also, I am fairly certain that his (young) teenage nephew was not involved in such. I could be wrong, but it seems like a solid bet."

Yes, I am aware I am considered a terrorist in several other countries. And they are welcome to come apprehend me an hold me accountable for my actions any time they feel froggy. As far as that guys nephew - you once again make assumptions based on no facts and hold them to be true. Hey, you do that alot ... referance your comment about 'all the guys that were responsible for 9/11 died in the attack' ... you were wrong then too. The guys flying the planes died, yes, but they weren't the only ones involved in that plot.

"D: no, if I were free, I wouldn't have been forced to pay part of your salary while you were in another country doing something that I disagree with. If I were free, I wouldn't be handing off a third of my paycheck every week so some old broad I have never met can afford to not work, and don't even get me started on the unemployment/food stamp programs. I am the 'if you don't work, you don't eat' guy in the room."


You know what, if you think America so bad just save us all the hassle an leave. You have that right you know.

[The Imp]

No, not voting doesn't give you more of a right to ***** then everyone else, it gives you less. If you choose to not have a voice in how things are done in this country that is fine, don't sit back with your lazy arguements about things being wrong though when you voluntarily allow others to make decisions for you.

By not voting he is making a point; he supports non of the candidates. By voting for the sake of voting he would not be voicing this opinion.

You know what, if you think America so bad just save us all the hassle an leave. You have that right you know.

Kind of an immature response, but taken literary running away is perhaps understandable, but not a trait i associate with strong humans.

You are right, it was not his vote. He would rather sit around baying about how terrible the world is an judging others for their actions instead of getting off his duff an changing it.

The world on its own is not terrible, it is natural. What is terrible is that America thinks it has the right to disrupt this natural balance, forcing thier (arguably more evolutionised) morals upon countries that are simply not ready for them.

EDIT: I respect my elders, but it is frustrating that you seem to see younger generations with bright ideas and honest opinions as a bad thing - you seem to want us to just follow what came before, no questions asked.

[Rakefur]

Not sure if I got the point of this thread, but thank you Ryshad and all other vets.

"all gave some, some gave all"

They are the reason we can play this game.

[The Imp]

They are the reason we can play this game.

unless he is a WW2 vet then you are wrong

[rouls]

as surprising as it may sound to some, america IS the reason why these countries r so unstable and ppl r suffering. if they HADNT send armies to them or lend support to their dictator governments then these ppl wont be living ilike they r now (yes gaddaffi and saddam were both once americas friends, and osama bin ladens troops were trained by the US during their war with russia). i wouldnt be surprised if the weapons used by terriosts to kill r made by america

u may FEEL u r being a hero, but the harsh truth is that u r the villian of many around the world. and threatening others just cuz they hold different opinion? freedom of speech is one of the few truly great things left in america, plz dont take that away too