Japanese whaling

[freemehul]

i am pretty sure Mother Nature has her own solution to human overpopulation

i see them as major problems simply for what they are, horrid

there is no need to use explosives on whales, unless the whales are attacking you

the world is not overpopulated, it's been estimated she can take more than triple the amount of people that we currently have and demographers estimate population growth will cease anyway when we reach about 12 billion. It's just that we're acting some damn wasteful.

[Gallowmere]

the world is not overpopulated, it's been estimated she can take more than triple the amount of people that we currently have and demographers estimate population growth will cease anyway when we reach about 12 billion. It's just that we're acting some damn wasteful.

I agree, and disagree, but that's largely because your statement is rather vague. For example, where does one draw the line for 'wasteful'? Is it somewhere between the United States and Mexico, or say, between Algeria and Cypress?

I mean, of course, if we were to all only consume 200 calories per day, had absolutely bare minimal use of precious metals (bye cell phones and computers and various pieces of machinery), only burned about 1/8th of a gallon of raw petroleum per person, per day... yeah, I am sure at that point, the world could very easily support triple, quadruple, or even fifty times it's current population.

[freemehul]

I agree, and disagree, but that's largely because your statement is rather vague. For example, where does one draw the line for 'wasteful'? Is it somewhere between the United States and Mexico, or say, between Algeria and Cypress?

I mean, of course, if we were to all only consume 200 calories per day, had absolutely bare minimal use of precious metals (bye cell phones and computers and various pieces of machinery), only burned about 1/8th of a gallon of raw petroleum per person, per day... yeah, I am sure at that point, the world could very easily support triple, quadruple, or even fifty times it's current population.

i was being deliberately vague, because there's no easy answer to that

oh by the way precious metals has nothing to do with how you feed a population, you can still expend energy on mining just fine

electricity isn't much of problem, it's cars and gasoline that's the biggest problem

in any event i would have to say the food consumption of mexico and the united states is extremely wasteful, both these countries take way too much calories then is good for them

the earth has resources enough to hold a population of 45 billion people, even in the worst case, which is the U.S. you're still talking twice the normal expenditure, so that would mean you keep about 22 billion U.S. citizens alive. Now demographers estimate the population will never reach that level, but will stay at about 12 billion. It could be 11 billion depending on how quick the underdeveloped countries go through the demographic transition.

So claiming that the world is overpopulated or will get overpopulated is bull****.

This Malthusian population bomb theory, of their being overpopulation has already been proven false. People really should stop using it, because it is such sheer and utter nonsense.

[Gallowmere]

You will get no argument from me on the food consumption. I'd say one quick look at obesity statistics (even those that use better scales than the joke that is BMI) will show you which countries are eating too much.

However, your assumption that overpopulation has no bearing on metals for example, is flat wrong. More people require more housing, etc. Every finite resource has to be taken into account when you are factoring in population growths.

Also, your assumption that people can expend identical quantities of energy on variable food supplies is also incorrect. Try sticking someone running on 800 calories per day next to someone of roughly equal physical ability consuming 2000, and see which one has higher production. Of course you would need to normalize things by making the food that each is consuming be of equal nutritional value. Of course, if the guy getting 800 was running on steak and potatoes, which the guy eating 2000 was getting it from candy and fried chicken, the former may just come out ahead.

[freemehul]

it isn't flat wrong, there are easy ways of using water and electricity to solve many of those problems, hell the ancient romans knew how to use water

you don't have to take every mineral into account, only those of which the risk exist that you may not have enough (the ones most used and most quantitive needed)

I was not incorrect, people who use less calories are more energy efficient in the use of those calories than the ones who take too much (obese people have an inefficient liver). You're reasoning in this is based on the fact that you take obese people i.e. 2000 calories as normal people. Western research isn't normal. You should really read some books about epigenetics and harvests.

Now as for 800 calories, yeah that's too low, especially for 17 year old men or pregnant women, but many young men will run just fine on 1200.

[Gallowmere]

I just may do so.

Also, keep in mind, I never said anything about overpopulation becoming a problem. What I said was that a growing population will require more resources to be taken from the Earth, in whatever form they may be.

The basic point of what I was getting at is that Western tree huggers should either shut up, or get used to doing without a lot of the niceties that they have gotten used to. Good luck getting either to happen.

[freemehul]

I think the real problem lies in the need for status building. If we weren't so prestige driven in collecting objects for which we don't have a need, a lot of problems would disappear over night. Nobody is telling me that you have a need to smoke cuban sigars, collect 1000+ figurine elephants in your living room, or 100+ pair of shoes in your closet. But alas that may just be my wishful thinking.

[Gallowmere]

You are now talking about something that is now so ingrained in various societies, that it will likely never go away. Hell, at this point in the conversation, we could completely throw religion under the bus as well. How many places have you been where the two most elaborate buildings on any given block are a church, and a bank? I see it quite a lot. Not to mention all of the weird idolatry related stuff.

Back to the original point though, you're right. Excess is the keystone for waste. The solution to that problem is one that will likely never be seen in our lifetime though. It would probably take a complete world catastrophe for people to scale that aspect back.

[scorpio86]

Back to the original point, i think the Australian S.A.S should be sent in to nuetralise the Japanese whaling fleet. There are many other ways to find food without killing whales, growing potatoes is one idea, also fish farming rather than shooting whales with explosive tipped harpoons and cutting them up while they are still alive.

[goodz]

we whale in canada too. Just saying, natives get to kill one every couple years. Who cares though meat is meat, i bet whale is delicious

[Scavenger]

That's different. I don't think you can say that the Inu?t are highly industrialized.

'Sustainable' harvest
The Inuit of Nunavut have only killed five bowhead whales since 1991, under a strict quota from the Canadian Government
[...] Japan is blocking hunting by indigenous people in retaliation for curbs on its own whaling

Sort of sketches the scene.

[naranara]

People have some strong views on this matter...

[scorpio86]

Meat is meat yes, yet i dislike the fact that whales are shot with explosive tipped harpoons and chopped up while still alive, there are better ways of finding food, as well as that the Japanese whaling fleet quite often journies and hunts through Australian waters yet our government does naught. if an Australian fishing boat were to appear in Japanese waters and shoot at sea creatures with explosive tipped harpoons i am assuming they would be arrested.

It is just that the ones doing the whaling have killed all of their own sea creatures and now are killing ones in farther off areas, in my mind it is just foolish and performed in a heartless and barbaric manner. Shoot the Japanese whaling fleet with torpedoes i say.

[naranara]

If not mistaken, whales are migratory, so the killing those in their own waters actually have a wider impact as those whales are not just confined to Japan. They actually came from somewhere else

[scorpio86]

Yes several species of whales migrate along the west and eastern coasts of Australia, Japanese men in boats follow the whales and shoot them with harpoons tipped with explosives, then drag the whales onboard and chop them up with halbeird like weapons while they are still alive. It is claimed it is for scientific research. Whale meat is sold in Asia. I am pretty good at math and i can put two and two together. If i were to buy a boat and sail out there, find some whales and start trying to kill them in the name of scientific research i am quite certain the coast guard would arrest me, why not the Japanese whaling fleet?