Fat Tax

[Gallowmere]

I have no problem with paying for the roads, via a usage tax on fuel, tires, auto parts, etc. My problem is that our money is fed into one giant 'kitty', and what the government does with that money is apparently none of our damned business. I don't use public libraries...I have this funky thing called a job. If I want a book, I buy it.

From what I understand, Norway isn't quite as bad as say, Sweden or Denmark, but still pretty high.

I honestly have no problem with the Northern European countries run their systems, so long as it's what their citizenry as a whole actually wants. Plus, I don't live there, so what you guys do is none of my business. :) However, it has been shown time and again, that for the most part, the majority of people here who support a massive welfare state are the ones who would benefit most from it. That sounds like a rather lopsided system to me. If we are going to be Capitalist, we should be so, and allow failing businesses and lazy people to fade into history.

[The Imp]

If you were a nihilist you wouldn't have such strong opinions Gallowmere haha

Where I come from and where i grew up tax was seen as a good thing in general, however the rich and more importantly the hardworking are quite rightly pissed off when this tax is either wasted by the government or wasted by the people it is supposed to be helping.

[Gallowmere]

If you were a nihilist you wouldn't have such strong opinions Gallowmere haha

Where I come from and where i grew up tax was seen as a good thing in general, however the rich and more importantly the hardworking are quite rightly pissed off when this tax is either wasted by the government or wasted by the people it is supposed to be helping.

Oh hell...you're right...I should probably change it to 'gradually reforming nihilist'. I am showing Nietzsche's philosophy on nihilism to be true (we must hasten it's coming, in order to hasten it's passing). Dammit. I still have some strands of it though, in realizing that individually, most of the world's population is of no consequence. ;)

[The Imp]

Love nietzsche... love how he creates ubermensch and also his theory of eternal reccurance - Live your life as if you have to live the exact same life an infinite number of times - Affirm life and make the most of your existance!

most of the world's population is of no consequence

A nihilist would say that nothing has consequence, ever. However this is a view based on (quite depressing) reason.... I like to think that passion is a stronger motivator, and so it makes it impossible to become a true nihilist... you can't help feeling that certain things do have consequence. Even if you do come to the conclusion that nothing has any consequence, Nietzsche would most likely see this as a relieval of inhibitions and limitations rather than a reason to give up. He was an optimist at heart!

[Gallowmere]

Love nietzsche... love how he creates ubermensch and also his theory of eternal reccurance - Live your life as if you have to live the exact same life an infinite number of times - Affirm life and make the most of your existance!



A nihilist would say that nothing has consequence, ever. However this is a view based on (quite depressing) reason.... I like to think that passion is a stronger motivator, and so it makes it impossible to become a true nihilist... you can't help feeling that certain things do have consequence. Even if you do come to the conclusion that nothing has any consequence, Nietzsche would most likely see this as a relieval of inhibitions and limitations rather than a reason to give up. He was an optimist at heart!

Nice to see that someone else gets that. Most of his 'pessimistic' writing was actually (just as with the nihilism thought), a way of taking currently reality, and showing many aspects of it as something that needed to be moved past, in order to improve. Nothing is an eternal quagmire, merely obstacles to be overcome, so to speak.

However, the realist in me forbids me from hoping that every person ever born will have something even remotely positive to contribute to the world as a whole. That's just how it is. Then again, I suppose it depends on one's definition of positive. I suppose if the 'dredges' of society are there for no other reason than to make the productive feel better about themselves, then they have accomplished SOMETHING.

[stoffi]

I have no problem with paying for the roads, via a usage tax on fuel, tires, auto parts, etc. My problem is that our money is fed into one giant 'kitty', and what the government does with that money is apparently none of our damned business. I don't use public libraries...I have this funky thing called a job. If I want a book, I buy it.

From what I understand, Norway isn't quite as bad as say, Sweden or Denmark, but still pretty high.

I honestly have no problem with the Northern European countries run their systems, so long as it's what their citizenry as a whole actually wants. Plus, I don't live there, so what you guys do is none of my business. :) However, it has been shown time and again, that for the most part, the majority of people here who support a massive welfare state are the ones who would benefit most from it. That sounds like a rather lopsided system to me. If we are going to be Capitalist, we should be so, and allow failing businesses and lazy people to fade into history.

I don't like that the government wastes my money either, but there's not much we can do because once you vote someone to power, they do what they want anyways.

Anyways, you should be worried about obesity though, because your tax dollars are used to pay for their extra usage of public services like welfare, and you also suffer because they can't work and produce. (I generalise a lot, not all obese ppl will go into this category, but the odds are much higher)

[Gallowmere]

While I understand where you are coming from stoffi, if I am willing to trample the 'right to be left alone' of other private citizens, just because their choices have an impact on a government welfare system that I think shouldn't exist anyway, then I am no better than the government sponsored meddlers.

Too much 'we know what's best for you because you voted for us' (even though the reasons for voting are often poorly disguised lies), does nothing to help anyone make better decisions. Such is the case with banning substances. Care to read up on the astonishing failures that were Prohibition, and is The War on Drugs? Given that most Europeans tend to know more about American history than your average American (which is pathetic on our end, by the way), you probably already know about them. Thought I would throw it out there in case you didn't, though. :)

Basically, removing options is a poor way to increase decision making skills. What do you REALLY think would happen if tobacco and foods that will make you a blimp were outright banned? Just add two more things to an already vicious black market.

[stoffi]

While I understand where you are coming from stoffi, if I am willing to trample the 'right to be left alone' of other private citizens, just because their choices have an impact on a government welfare system that I think shouldn't exist anyway, then I am no better than the government sponsored meddlers.

Too much 'we know what's best for you because you voted for us' (even though the reasons for voting are often poorly disguised lies), does nothing to help anyone make better decisions. Such is the case with banning substances. Care to read up on the astonishing failures that were Prohibition, and is The War on Drugs? Given that most Europeans tend to know more about American history than your average American (which is pathetic on our end, by the way), you probably already know about them. Thought I would throw it out there in case you didn't, though. :)

Basically, removing options is a poor way to increase decision making skills. What do you REALLY think would happen if tobacco and foods that will make you a blimp were outright banned? Just add two more things to an already vicious black market.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the Prohibition and the current War on Drugs. Both failures, but that does not take away the need to regulate as some people will take advantage, which has happened in the US today. Big corps are the real power in the US today, influencing every decision the Congress or President does. Hell, Pizza is called a vegetable now! :p Guess why? ;)

Anyways, be both kinda agree in principle, only we disagree on how extreme it should be. I believe that people are stupid and need a government to look after them. :) People tend to see only their imminent future and rarely the bigger picture.

But, since we both live with governments who take our taxes and spend it on things beyond our control that we might not agree on, we're not well served with obesity as that increases the taxes we pay so the obese can continue being obese. ;)

[scorpio86]

How the heck is pizza a vegetable?

[stoffi]

How the heck is pizza a vegetable?

The US Congress says so, after big corps didn't like it NOT being a vegetable and lobbied so much that the Congress magically changed their mind. Corruption in system.

[Gallowmere]

I definitely agree with you on one point. As I said to Bishop before, if people actually thought long term, instead of just 'today and tomorrow', it's less likely that anyone would be a blimp to begin with. That being said, I am a good example of the kind of 'I'll do it anyway' behavior, given that I know what smoking does to the body, yet I still set upwards of 60 cigarettes per day on fire.

The difference between myself and most of the fatties is that I will never expect government to pay for my cancer treatment, nor would they. See, that's what I don't get...if you smoke, you don't qualify for lung or eye transplants. If you drink, no new liver for you.

There's the perfect compromise between you and I. Leave the programs in place, but make ALL voluntary actions disqualifiers. Keep stuffing your face with things that you KNOW are terrible for you, and you cannot get ANY government assistance for obesity related health problems. If you weigh 400 pounds, you'd better be able to afford your own heart medication, or you'd better have one hell of a life insurance policy. A coffin that big is doubtlessly expensive.

[stoffi]

I definitely agree with you on one point. As I said to Bishop before, if people actually thought long term, instead of just 'today and tomorrow', it's less likely that anyone would be a blimp to begin with. That being said, I am a good example of the kind of 'I'll do it anyway' behavior, given that I know what smoking does to the body, yet I still set upwards of 60 cigarettes per day on fire.

The difference between myself and most of the fatties is that I will never expect government to pay for my cancer treatment, nor would they. See, that's what I don't get...if you smoke, you don't qualify for lung or eye transplants. If you drink, no new liver for you.

There's the perfect compromise between you and I. Leave the programs in place, but make ALL voluntary actions disqualifiers. Keep stuffing your face with things that you KNOW are terrible for you, and you cannot get ANY government assistance for obesity related health problems. If you weigh 400 pounds, you'd better be able to afford your own heart medication, or you'd better have one hell of a life insurance policy. A coffin that big is doubtlessly expensive.

In theory, that sounds great. In reality, most people change their mind when they are about to die. We want to live(most of us) and we'll go through a lot to survive. Tough luck you say, but that's before the media focus on them and ppl feel sorry for them. "How can you just let them die like that!" And dang, that theory went to hell.
In theory, I agree with you as long as the person is mature enough/adult enough(not 18) to make his own choices and he KNOWS 100% that what he's doing is optional and very dangerous.

[Ovenmitt]

They need to tax people high in saturated fat, not foods.

[Gallowmere]

Stoffi, it's almost pathetic, but you're right. Why is it that the ONLY thing that can't be avoided in life, is the only thing that most people will sink obscene amounts of money and suffering for the hope of putting it off? I understand the survival instinct, but some things just don't apply. For example, I have had many pets, and when they know they are about to die, they go into hiding for a while. They don't stand around beating at their cage, screaming for someone to help them.

I notice that you mentioned age, and I happen to agree with you. I had the misfortune of having a morbidly obese mother who didn't care what kind if garbage food she fed her children. Pair that with the slothfest that is public education, and you can imagine what happened. It took me five years after moving out on my own to finally get my body back in good working order. I went on a rant in another thread about bad parenting choices, so I'll avoid doing so again here.

Age holds no bearing though. Some people grasp things well before age 18. Others could live to be 100, and they'll never get it. Though the most stupid tend to live rather short lives anyway.

[The Imp]

In theory, I agree with you as long as the person is mature enough/adult enough(not 18) to make his own choices and he KNOWS 100% that what he's doing is optional and very dangerous.

Objection your honour!... Go **** yourself im 18

Age holds no bearing though. Some people grasp things well before age 18. Others could live to be 100, and they'll never get it. Though the most stupid tend to live rather short lives anyway.

The best die young gallowmere.... don't make me bring up a list to prove it, it will only make me sad