Human OPS +40% Thoughts! And droughts + dragons question.

[DDodge]

humans get +40% damage on all sabatogue ops of course. Now i'm under the impression that this encompasses all ops other than intel ops.


Now, many ops reach their cap very easily, without needing a super large amount of thieves to be sent. examples would be NS, and robbing GC, good, and runes (assume in war)

However, some ops require a considerably larger amount of thieves sent to reach their Cap.
examples would be Riots (4x their acres normally), kidnappings (kinda, it doesnt take THAT much to reach the cap i guess), and stealing horses. I havent used steal horses much at all but from the few times i have it appears you do need to send a very large chunk of thieves to hit the cap.

Im also wondering about the op, sabatogue wizards. Im not even sure what the cap on this would be since you have no way to verify how much damage you did to their pool, but i usually send 2x their acres when hoping for max effect. Seems like humans +40% damage could be useful here too.

So in conclusion, i previously thought that humans +40% damage would only be useful when coupled with Propaganda, and that for non-rogues it wasnt a very useful perk! but now i'm thinking these other ops also can benefit greatly from the +40% damage:

riots, steal horses, sabatogue wizzies, and kidnappings!
Thoughts on this analysis?





Second, about the drafting penalties incurred.

Dragons make it sound like they pay full amount to draft, and then 20% vanishes. Meaning they are still CHARGED gc for soldiers that won't be there.

All dragons result in 10% lower income and the loss of 20% of new draftees.

droughts on the other hand are phrased in a way that appears they just actually draft 15% less than they would have, but wouldnt be paying for that 15%.

droughts
Effect: Decreases food production by 25%, military draft rate by 15% and horses production by 50%.

Would these stack?
I'm thinking droughts would be actioned first, meaning that if you were to draft 100 soldiers you would now draft and pay for 85. Then of those 85 that you paid to draft, 17 of them (20%) will just... vanish?

sound right?

[dingy2]

+40% damage is amazing for every op. It's that simple. ;)

Although any static effect op, like riots, isn't going to benefit from the +40%. You'd have to have +40% duration for riots, which would indeed be amazing as well. Sabotage wizards, I'm really not sure how that works, whether that would benefit from the human bonus. My hunch is no.

As for losing draftees, I think they both have the same effect, as in you simply have a lower draft rate. So together they'd have .8 * .85 = 68% draft rate. Meaning you simply lose 32 soldiers for every 100 you otherwise would have drafted. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding. Together, it's a good combo, but I personally think storms is going to be more effective in most cases.

[Ethan]

I have little useful addition. I am mostly attempting to subtract the fail post above me. Even the OP stated the effects cap - the only way you make your post is if you never even read the OP carefully.

My only addition is that, as an A/t for most of last age (human/sage) - the +40% matters more. Thief loss is good, and since my viable targets are limited once I've been in war a few days (and seen my rTPA go from 3 to 1.5 - and having my sci mod wacked from 120% range to 90% to boot) I often found I was trying to kidnap from bad NW targets, cause that's who had pes and low thieves. Even my NS was partway out of range, when I fired a few of those off. So ya, I liked it a lot, but mostly cause I was using the race as A/t instead of proper A/T.

(And before you claim 3 rTPA ain't even A/t - it was 8-10 mod. Yes, 'tis plenty in a 4kk kingdom. Fear the sage! Though I agree when it got axed to 3-4 mod by growth/churn... that's just defense and taking from people with bad strategies.)

[Topsy]

Dingy, +40% damage would be terrific for any op, if the human buff actually added 40% damage to all ops. What ddodge is using as a starting point, is the fact that this is not how the buff works. Instead, it means that when you send theives on an op, it is as if you send 40% more theives. Raw theives sent determines the damage; however, there is a cap on all ops besides propaganda. If max damage is 100% possible damage, and it is gained by sending 100 troops, then sending 140 troops still only does 100% damage.

That being said, there are other instances where it is difficult to reach the cap on ops, such as when you are trying to do a difficult op while they have high WT up, when your nw differential is affecting gains, or when you are doing an intra-kd op. It also makes being an a/t without rogue more viable, as you don't need to send as many theives/won't lose as many when you invariably fail.

edit: guess ethan pretty much got all that while i was typing

[-Zer0-]

Wait a minute, that just sounds confusing.

+40% damage is far different than effectiveness. I was under the impression you had to succeed at an op, before you got the damge. From what you're saying, it sounds as if it counts toward the attempt. That makes little to no sense when its clearly stated +40% damage (not effectiveness) breaking through.

I would like clarification. No offense but in lamens terms you make it sound like they're as good as halflings. (without faster stelth regen) I'm new at this so maybe I just have the terminology wrong.

[Twyla]

By any chance, could that +40% Damage possibly be above and beyond the normal cap?

[Topsy]

Twyla, there is no going over the cap on any theivery ops. The only op (likely)without a cap is prop.

-Zer0-, it is not effectiveness. Damage from theivery ops are determined by the amount of raw theives you send. The +40% effects this damage modifier, making it so that it is as if you are sending 40% more raw theives. It does not effect efficiency in any way.

[Twyla]

"Cap" insofar as a single Thievery Op can only cause so much damage based upon the target, regardless of how many Thieves you send.

Such as Kidnapping:

Steals up to a max of 1.75% (2.5% in war) enemy peasants at the rate of 0.1 (0.27 in war) peasants per thief.

Whereas for a Human:

Steals up to a max of 2.45% (3.5% in war) enemy peasants at the rate of 0.1 (0.27 in war) peasants per thief.

Original formula from the wiki.

Effectiveness only affects the latter portion, while the Human bonus affects the first.

At least that's how I'm reading it.

[Topsy]

"Steals up to a max of 1.75% (2.5% in war) enemy peasants at the rate of 0.1 (0.27 in war) peasants per thief."

The cap is to the damage. In this case, the 1.75% or 2.5% according to relations. You will never get more than 1.75% or 2.5% of the targets peasents.

The human bonus is, in effect, to the rate. So oow, every thief gets .14(assuming 0 WT) peasents instead of the normal .1.

The point being that if you were a non human, and targetted a province with 10,000 peasents oow, the max you could ever get back is 175. This is true if you send 1750 theives(max with 0 WT), or 10 million theives.

[Twyla]

Isn't that what Thievery Effectiveness does? Or does that relate more to TpA vs TpA?

Oh, wait! I think I see it.

The Human bonus works the same way in regards to effectiveness of a particular op, but DOESN'T modify the effective TpA the way straight Effectiveness does.

[Topsy]

Yeah, the problem is the term "effectiveness" is kind of misleading. In real life, you would think that it would mean "these dudes are more effective at their job...aka theiving" which would probably mean "they can haul more goods back, kill more people, whatever"

Instead effectiveness mods(like the faeries, or science) effect your mod tpa/wpa. It is the relationship between your wpa/tpa and your targets tpa/wpa that determines the chance for success of your op.

So, 50% effectiveness on 2 raw tpa gives you 3 mod tpa
40% sabatage damage at 2 raw tpa and no modifiers gives you 2 modtpa, but with the ability to damage equal to what you would get at 2.8 raw tpa.

[Twyla]

I was under the impression that 'Thievery Effectiveness', such as the Faery and Dwarf mods, affected both Net TpA and damage.

Of course, I have been away for a while. It's possible either that aspect has changed since I was last active or I'm just misremembering.

[nooblet]

No, thief effectiveness mods have never affected damage.

[TerricK]

Now with sabotage wizards..reduces their mana by a small percentage.... Does anyone know the exact percentage?

[nooblet]

From what I read it was something like 1/16 of a province's mana.