Science Max

[Solyhhit]

Generally yes, a sage wants around 1% libs per 100 bpa. It isn't really linear though, so I usually suggest this only apply between 500 bpa and 1,500 bpa - aka, don't bother below 5%, and don't go over 15% without doing the math yourself to see if it helps.

It also is a little aggressive, and calibrated for the stronger sage... so requiring an extra 100 bpa or so is probably reasonable. (And stretch the last bit a bit extra too.) Thus I might actually propose (at a guess - there is no math backing this adjustment!) the following:
600 => 4%
700 => 5.5%
800 => 7%
900 => 8%
1000 => 9%
1100 => 10%
1200 => 11%
1300 => 12%
1400 => 12.5%
1500 => 13%
1600 => 13.5%
1700 => 14%
1800 => 14.5%
1900 => 14.75%
2000 => 15%


Or... build to the simple rule, know it is a tiny bit overbuilt... and don't bother with any for the first 24 hours of war. Kinda like homes - wait to see if you have a specific need for them before building them. If you can't get to max pop anyway they only gave you a bigger army to start with - like homes (pop cap effect), they aren't helping much anymore. (Though they still matter - yay income and BE!)

A reminder that they are great if you take a chain because the sci spikes so much... and pop cap is king during a chain. More max pop = more offense to keep hitting with.

Are you basing the BPA calculation as a "100 BPA per category" or on "100 BPA all categories combined?"

Also, as a non-sage, you would run slightly less lib. than what you're suggesting above?

Thanks

[Ethan]

Yes, those BPAs are for all sciences combined. (Total BPA) While it matters where you put the sci... by and large the variation isn't going to be too big, so sci distro has minimal impact on libs % - it doesn't matter where it is, if it is useful, you want about that many libs modding it.

Easier to think of non sage as needing higher books to get the same effect. Back when sage was +30% sci, a non-sage needed 1.7 books for every 1 book the sage had (1.3*1.3 = 1.69 rounds to 1.7). Or, often said that non-sage needed 70% more sci to hit the same lib%.

With new sage the difference is smaller... although actually the non-sage values haven't really changed. (Hence the slightly revised upwards bpa values for sage - sage mod is lower!) So you can use a rule of thumb that it takes 170 bpa per point of libs, between 5-15% libs (still) for a non-sage. Then figure out what it is for sage. It is just that old stronger sage worked out very close to 100 bpa = 1%, and that is nice and easy to remember, so that's what everyone "knows" as the rule of thumb now.

[Third Leg]

Keep Pumping. Beat Jdorje...

** Effects Summary (Known Science Only) **
686.1% Income
336.2% Building Effectiveness
336.2% Population Limits
1,118.3% Food Production
3% Gains in Combat
388.9% Thievery Effectiveness
639.7% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production

Are these numbers for real?
If so, what was the size of the province?

[Solyhhit]

Yes, those BPAs are for all sciences combined. (Total BPA) While it matters where you put the sci... by and large the variation isn't going to be too big, so sci distro has minimal impact on libs % - it doesn't matter where it is, if it is useful, you want about that many libs modding it.

Easier to think of non sage as needing higher books to get the same effect. Back when sage was +30% sci, a non-sage needed 1.7 books for every 1 book the sage had (1.3*1.3 = 1.69 rounds to 1.7). Or, often said that non-sage needed 70% more sci to hit the same lib%.

With new sage the difference is smaller... although actually the non-sage values haven't really changed. (Hence the slightly revised upwards bpa values for sage - sage mod is lower!) So you can use a rule of thumb that it takes 170 bpa per point of libs, between 5-15% libs (still) for a non-sage. Then figure out what it is for sage. It is just that old stronger sage worked out very close to 100 bpa = 1%, and that is nice and easy to remember, so that's what everyone "knows" as the rule of thumb now.

Awesome, thanks for your detailed response!

[bluebear]

Are these numbers for real?
If so, what was the size of the province?

what Palem has is at midage. At the end of the age, dorje had much more science, and he ended at 122k acres.

[Palem]

Those numbers are very real, and why the current science system is an improvement lol

[Realest]

best genesis player of all time.

[nooblet]

bear in mind that libs have to compete with other buildings you might want, that don't have a corresponding effect in science. it is interesting to note that libs are the only building that can increase your mod magic effectiveness and gains just by existing, so provinces that want to emphasize both of those sciences get more mileage than provinces that foucs on the econ sciences or crime for which there are alternatives. during a war, if you're any kind of a target the libs are going to be destroyed by chaining/razing, massacre, or ops, so bear that in mind when tweaking numbers. they're a very good peacetime building if the science is there, though.

as to what point science is less useful... really depends on the province and sage persona, i guess. gains science is highly undervalued... very devastating in war if used properly. Crime and Channeling are good in their niche, at least as useful as pop science to anyone who wants to make use of either role extensively. all of the econ sciences can be neutered in effectiveness during war with planning, but crime/channeling are tougher to cancel completely and gains only stops being good when a province is totally unable to attack. i'd pump one of the three specialist sciences to 400bpa+ if the money is there, but you really don't need 400bpa of alchemy or housing for any reason.

[Ezzerland]

Are these numbers for real?
If so, what was the size of the province?

They are real, and huge. If I remember correctly, it was the age Human/Sage was stupid OP and sciences were still buyable. You had land generating sciences and a massive income bonus, dump that income into sciences and you generated more income from the pop/be/income boost from sciences. As the age progressed, this compounded into the awesome you quoted.

[Palem]

Also, it was Gen so it was another +20% income on top of that...