Which of these setups is more advantageous?

[TheRock]

If your 2660a provs are UB to 2330a provs, you're a giant def whore, which makes setup A obviously the wrong answer. Anyone who answers A should be shot. Those provs will just get outhit, outgrown and raped.

There's no scenario where I wouldn't want to be kingdom B. In hostile or war, B will win.

[Ordray]

If your 2660a provs are UB to 2330a provs, you're a giant def whore, which makes setup A obviously the wrong answer. Anyone who answers A should be shot. Those provs will just get outhit, outgrown and raped.

There's no scenario where I wouldn't want to be kingdom B. In hostile or war, B will win.

Read the caveats in the first post.

- Assume UBs are T/Ms or Hybrid (so basically Faery, or Halfling, going by this round)

Personally, I'm torn between B and C. B has the advantage of having everyone the same size and close to the same stats. C, on the other hand, has a tiered set up that could chain faster by keeping gains higher by handing the target from top tier to bottom tier.

[nooblet]

Setup A is not going to be unbreakable unless they're t/ms.
I didn't realize this was a big deal, as long as most provinces were within 20-30% of each other's land size with some allowances given to exceptionally large provinces at the upper tier of world rankings. I suppose it depends on what function the larger provinces have that differentiate them from the average provinces, if we're talking about ideal scenario.

So I'd probably pick C, but if there were provinces between 2300 and 1800 acres it doesn't change too much, just as long as there were equal land sizes/nw among the top 4-5 to prevent any one from being an obvious target. Somewhere between B and C is what most kingdoms will naturally have, and allows for a wider range of players that can get good gains off a target with B strictly enforced while still being able to chain.

[Realest]

he said to assume those facts. whether or not its realistic or possible is another story.

[TheRock]

Read the caveats in the first post.

I did.

"- Assume UBs are T/Ms or Hybrid (so basically Faery, or Halfling, going by this round)"
"- Assume every heavy attacker is running 90+opa, but the UBs are still UB."

If attackers are running 90 opa, Kingdom C's 2330a provs are running 209,700 offense. Unbreakables need way more defense - otherwise, they're breakable. You assume a 5% cushion to avoid a fed break and they'll need roughly 440k defense. 440,000/2660=165 dpa, or a robust 16 epa for the Faery, assuming they run tons of Forts to increase defense. 16 epa Faeries are basically useless. As every province has 175 nwa, those 16 epa are 128 of that nwa alone. Do the math - you don't have very useful provinces.

My point stands. Kingdom B is the only choice.

[baka]

I did.

"- Assume UBs are T/Ms or Hybrid (so basically Faery, or Halfling, going by this round)"
"- Assume every heavy attacker is running 90+opa, but the UBs are still UB."

If attackers are running 90 opa, Kingdom C's 2330a provs are running 209,700 offense. Unbreakables need way more defense - otherwise, they're breakable. You assume a 5% cushion to avoid a fed break and they'll need roughly 440k defense. 440,000/2660=165 dpa, or a robust 16 epa for the Faery, assuming they run tons of Forts to increase defense. 16 epa Faeries are basically useless. As every province has 175 nwa, those 16 epa are 128 of that nwa alone. Do the math - you don't have very useful provinces.

My point stands. Kingdom B is the only choice.

First off, you don't need 165dpa. You need a cushion but not that much. 100-110 dpa is a decent faery def to have.

If they feed to break 1 faery just to help him get higher wpa & tpa then that kd should be shot.

[TheRock]

First off, you don't need 165dpa. You need a cushion but not that much. 100-110 dpa is a decent faery def to have.

If they feed to break 1 faery just to help him get higher wpa & tpa then that kd should be shot.

It says unbreakable. You aren't an unbreakable if you can be broken. 100 dpa on 2660a is 266k def. That is breakable for a 90 opa attacker via Conquest.

Personally, I think 165 dpa Faeries are ****ing retarded, but those were the standards given - unbreakable.

[baka]

It says unbreakable. You aren't an unbreakable if you can be broken. 100 dpa on 2660a is 266k def. That is breakable for a 90 opa attacker via Conquest.

Personally, I think 165 dpa Faeries are ****ing retarded, but those were the standards given - unbreakable.

Fair enough... I get your point. I see interpret UB a bit differently in this scenario

[KuhaN]

So if i got rid of "UB", and the 2660a faeries had 110dpa instead, then A would be the best choice?

[baka]

So if i got rid of "UB", and the 2660a faeries had 110dpa instead, then A would be the best choice?

You would, technically, have 3 x 2600 acres 'secured' and not transferred in the war to the other side - since acreage is always shifting.

[TheRock]

You would, technically, have 3 x 2600 acres 'secured' and not transferred in the war to the other side - since acreage is always shifting.

286k def vs 209.7k off is secured? Really?

Chances those three provinces make it through the war at the same size or bigger they came in at: 0%

[baka]

286k def vs 209.7k off is secured? Really?

Chances those three provinces make it through the war at the same size or bigger they came in at: 0%

T/M's has, for the history of known Uto wars, made it through very well over the ages. Yes, a T/M that is larger than every prov in the other kd with more def is very safe most, if not all, of the time.

Try 'breaking' one with all your might and resources and usually that mighty hero falls much harder than the 'UB' does. Not to add the fact that the fellow 'UB' might give a thank you note for giving them the extra tpa/wpa boost.

[nooblet]

A t/m shouldn't need to landdrop slightly to op provinces. *shrug* I have no issue with conquesting t/ms if that's all that is left to bring down, since they're going to have a rough time replacing land without diverting runes to LL, and even with LL repeated conquests bring a t/m down considerably until the large attackers can break outright and whittle away defense even faster.

[goodz]

if KD A has prov 1 2 and 3 as unbreakable faes they should win provided this starts in war, anyone bouncing or conquesting a fae in war is wasting time really, but the faes should have good enough econ to really effect things.

Now if its pre war hostile there is no reason you wouldn't bounce the faes 4-5x and kill off 1/3rd of their defense

[TheRock]

T/M's has, for the history of known Uto wars, made it through very well over the ages. Yes, a T/M that is larger than every prov in the other kd with more def is very safe most, if not all, of the time.

Try 'breaking' one with all your might and resources and usually that mighty hero falls much harder than the 'UB' does. Not to add the fact that the fellow 'UB' might give a thank you note for giving them the extra tpa/wpa boost.

The three kingdoms listed here are either warring kingdoms or ghettos - no whoring kingdoms would have this setup, especially at that size and at mid round.

Ask any warring kingdom or ghetto if taking down the big T/Ms is worthwhile or if they'll do it, the answer should always be yes (unless they suck). Many kingdoms used to run the 5 Large T/M, 20 attacker setup, where you'd have your big T/Ms at the top clean out anyone who grew into range and your base take them down. The way to beat them was simple - eat the T/Ms.

If these were 3k acre T/Ms with significant econ/space advantages, I'd take KD A, but these are barely larger and can't do enough damage to hold down the base. It's simply a matter of time through hostile+war when the other kingdoms just outgrow them and feed on them. Don't forget, Faery has -10% pop - 110 dpa, even with great Forts, is still 11 epa. That's just under half your pop just for def. If they're running 4 WPA 4 TPA (not a great t/m by any stretch), they're only at 4.5 ppa, aka very low/no economy. Even if you assume only 1h of hostile and 48h of war, which is a best case for them, you're looking at 49h of MS on pure def provinces. How would that be hard to break?

Kingdom A has 3 acre farms. Kingdom C beats them easily, Kingdom B beats them but it's tougher. B still beats C though, so I'll take B every day.

A better setup for Kingdom A would be 3 provinces at 4000, 22 provinces at ~1815. That kingdom would fry any of these kingdoms, no questions asked.