But to put discussion back on topic, I still feel hybrids are viable ATs are easier to play than AMs, Am is a lot easier to play, but all can be done. Rogue makes AT very easy to pull off. With the sage being weakened, it is harder for AM, but not impossible.
I have to agree with citadel, 50 opa is hard to overcome.
CanWe
Disagreements are ok, disagreements laced with insults are not.
S E C R E T S
Hybreds are situational IMO, they can be fantastic under some situations but others they are weak. At different times during the war, different people will be weaker than others to thievery (using that as an example), if you grow while having bad econ then you wont be able to maintain a decent thievery def and hybred actions against them become easier. The same when your chained, you'll end up with a fantastic TPA for thieving.
IMHO it is better to play as a attacker who dabbles in thievery instead of going full blown A/t (again regarding thievery, same if wanting to play A/m), for exampe human sages can make great A/t after they been chained down (or after pumping TPA)but if left alone and good growth then they would be better to focus more on pure attacking. If your kd is good enough then you can lead ppl into weakened states then it is rather easy to be ripped apart by 'hybreds'.
The WT/TD can be largly decided on the oppositions Faes, if they don't have many (only 1 or 2) then TD would be my prefered choice (assuming decent tpa)but with too many fae threats (4-5) then WT would be better IMO, no way will you realistically beat a Fae in thievery so the auto fail to me is more appealing.
Just my thoughts ^.^
"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."
An example of a Human A/T
5 ppa
1 wpa
3 tpa
8 dspa
8 epa
This gives you the power to NS full attackers while still having good offense and decent defense.
This is my province. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My province is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My province, without me, is useless. Without my province, I am useless.
I must attack hard with my province. I must attack harder than my enemy who is trying to pk me. I must pk him before he pk's me. I will...
a/t's cant thieve when they get chained midoki. Their thieves get locked from overpopulation and start deserting and they typically end up too low on the nw chart in the end for their ops to have any importance since thieving too high up is useless. Best use of thieves on chained province is to release them and aid sols out to provide more space for the returning elites.
a/m's on the other hand can be a real pain once chained, their wpa rockets skyhigh partially compensating for nw diference on oping and both LL and FB results are based on targets resources and not your own so you can use them to their full extend on ppl with much higher nw/acres. Not the optimal scenario ofc but at least province's magic aspect doesnt get disabled like when you chain a/t.
If your overpop then deal with it, just cause you can't thief untill you resolved it doesn't mean you can't when the oppertunity allows, you dont stop being an attacker just cause you cant attack for an hour or two.
Oh and I know a chained prov wont be able to do there best against someone 20 times larger but they aint the only ones who can be opped, hence the word situational. /Facepalm
The stronger your thievery the more options become available, the more situations become profitable for yourself and the kds objective, as a pure attacker I found oppertunities to fill up my pezzies on every hit I made after the 1st day of war. If you have the intel then you can make better choices, as for the OPs question about are they any good then my answer was "depends on the situation" with a easy to see example... well I hoped it was easy to understand.
"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."
I find human a/t to be meh... to make it really work like that you have to crash your economy with a very high draftrate even with housing science, and take buildings and population away from their military and economic buildings. That nerfs two of human's good strengths... and it's not like attackers can't train up tpa and build watchtowers. Better to wait until later in the war, if the human has some breathing space, to train up some extra thieves, and use them to ns once the war has dragged on and enemy economy doesn't allow them to afford extra thieves, and their watchtowers can be neglected or torn down. Before then they're pretty good at resource theft, since that doesn't require as high a tpa and sends fewer thieves per op to be useful - helped by the sabotage bonus as well, and puts you in a better position to do the thief training thing in order to run better ops.
midoki if you are chained you end up mindlesly trading acres at the bottom with the rest of the no def provinces. You are overpopulated at all times except right after land comes in and your thieves are deserting most of the time.
Your nw is too low to be able to NS enemy top provs and any thievery you can do will have to be targeted at bottom of the enemy KD where its wasted.
so yeah ... its not situational, its useless. Your much better off releasing thieves and aiding them out and keeping more military, it will be of much more use to yourself and to the KD.
^ riots spree on bottem
^ steal rescources at the bottem to stay in + income and you just steal their aid to their bottem chained guys
^ prop chained provinces at the bottem if they have almost no tpa anymore nice full leet army oe one hitt on that :)
^ or just ns
All of the above makes it even that harder for the enemy chained provs get a nice greed on him to
When doing the above you will be able to not let the enemy bottem really pump their defence up again and lowering their defence but all is situational.
But having 180 OPA at the bottem no defence no thieves will be onley landswap and landswap
chained human can still have 120 OPA with some thieves to use his stealth.
Not using stealth/manna to zero than you are doing something wrong at the bottem
If you're using your stealth/mana down to 0 then you're a hacker, because that's not possible.Originally Posted by Crypticterror
Personally, I find the A/t to work a lot better when you are growing instead of shrinking - all those pes that aren't filling up fast enough? Steal them. All those gc (and runes/food) you need to keep up with training? Steal those too. Your tpa might have started strong enough to NS, but if you pop 50% in the first 48... all it is now is defense and scavenging. But if your up that far, that's all you want it for anyway - your goal is to make them pay for ignoring you.
Also, thieves work great against a semi-chain. They drop you enough to kill your pes... you just steal them back. So you can kinda look at it as taking a semi-chain and econ kill off the table, which forces them to either deep chain or max gain. (Which is kinda why those are the two big strats at the top, since they are both much tougher to stop.)
Wiz from an A/m with LL do make a nice deep chain buffer though. As human sage A/t I used that once myself despite the magic malus - when you hit +170% magic sci... your 1.5 WPA that became 4 RAW is more than enough to be a mage too. A/T/M for the win! (Or loss... since at the time I was chained 1700 => 600 in the first wave, and down to 400 in the second. Since my kingdom wasn't able to even run a chain to 50%... we resigned at 24 hours in, we knew we were that outgunned. But I did my part as best I could have - made them spend half their second wave to finish me off.)
The point of all that was that A/m buffers deep chain a bit better, A/t can grow into land faster.
it's vs. its is ambiguous - from now on I'm attempting to use the proper possessive it's, and the contraction 'tis. (Its will just be the plural.)
Think Different
I second Ethan's remarks.
Hybrids are perfectly fine. If you're in a top10 KD looking to grow, yeah obviously it's different. But there are 320 kingdoms that aren't top10 and if they're warring, they can pretty much all benefit from a diversity of options. Every KD needs strong attackers, and if you hope to compete with the active and well-organized warring KDs, you need to have strong ops too. It's a balancing act that you have to fit your race/pers availability into. Sometimes it's best to have heavy attackers and dedicated T/M. Sometimes it pays to have a few hybrids.
People go on about how activity wins wars, and it's true. But what happens when two KDs are equally active? The one that uses sharper tactics and optimally utilizes their personnel has the edge. In this way, getting every last ounce of ops coverage can make the difference.
There will always be provinces in the enemy KD with hardly any wpa and tpa. On these guys, hybrids can cover ops and let T/Ms save their resources for the tougher targets.
On a sidenote, about a year ago everyone was trumpeting about how hybrids are king and warring KDs are wasting potential if they aren't firing every gun at their disposal, blah blah blah. The introduction of faery has strengthened the dedicated T/M, but it hasn't done much to reduce the effectiveness of hybrids. We get caught up in the fad of commonly accepted strategy in this game. There are a great many paths you could potentially take to reach your goals.
Last edited by dingy2; 29-02-2012 at 19:20.
There is no such thing as a/t/m. Or a/m for that matter. Attacker provinces either have better wpa than their opponent or they don't, and rune management is important. In war you can't steal an infinite supply, and most likely you're going to have to distribute the rune production throughout the kingdom in order to have enough to feed an a/m to cast enough instant effect spells... or nerf your a/m by building a ton of towers and having runes stolen by a competent t/m or a/t.
i hate it when facts get in the way of people's ignorance. please carry on everyone and play "hybrids"
The End of an Era
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