Hybrids

[Ramsig]

Stealing money for economy worked for me even though enemy kingdom were using 2 tpa for attackers too.

I play with 3 raw tpa, 15% TDs and boosted thievery science early to 70%. Means 6-7 mod tpa

And yeh we aint some random 20 province kd. Were 25m and weve won the last 7 wars in a row

Stats as avian when war starts: 95 mod opa (1 off spec/acre for dragon), 40 mod dpa elites out, ~6.5 mod tpa, 0.8-1 raw wpa

Edit. Starting opa is a bit low but the offense doesnt drop during war. It will go up when age goes forward and housing science gets up

[citadela01]

so much hate on poor hybrids ...

typical atacker in mid tier warrin/non dicing KD will run 1-2 raw wpa, 2-4 wpa mod for defensive purposes. In comparison elf sage with halfdecent sci and ~4 raw wpa will run 9-10 mod wpa midage when sci starts kicking in and will have no issues fb'ing said attacker.
Basically a ~20 opa traded in for the ability to fire off ~50 fb's a day. Not a bad trade imo, not viable on KD level but definitelly usable for suport role in the warring KD.

a/t's are a different storry ... ppl still run them a lot but personally I feel they suck this age with the absence of tpa mods (as oposed to MF available to elves) and due to bigger population/land investment needed to make them work, also they are much easier to disable via chains than a/m's.

Long story short hybrids themself arent useless. they are an asset. Problem is that ppl playing them usually have issues accepting their oping ability is handicapped to beggin with, so they end up overinvesting population to be able to aw fae or to protect themslef from t/m's and whatnot rather than accept that by nature of the game they should only aim to op pure attackers and take ops from pure t/m's as they come and not invest additional 20-30 opa only to protect themself from MS from pure fae t/m.
Such hybrid players usually end up playing crappy provinces with 50-60 opa and are rightfully ridiculed and give hybrids bad rep.

Over the last 3 ages I played hybrid provinces twice, one was human/sage a/t boasting 100-110 opa and ~10-15 tpa mid/late age, other was dorf/sage a/m boasting 90-100 opa and 8-10 mod wpa mid/late age, 35 dpa on both, no gens accounted for either province, no high honour ranks. Economy on both provinces was crapy ofc and draft vas very high but that isnt an issue if all you aim to do is war and are just sitting on your acres between wars.
Now ppl can go on and pour shi* all they want over hybrids but provinces ran like I did with mine are asset to a KD and provide excelent suport to the war effort.

[lmtdconv92]

That is a great post citadela, and sums it up very nicely. Hybrids are not for every kingdom. But, for the ones that can run them effectively, they work well.

[Avenger]

Stealing money for economy worked for me even though enemy kingdom were using 2 tpa for attackers too.

I play with 3 raw tpa, 15% TDs and boosted thievery science early to 70%. Means 6-7 mod tpa

And yeh we aint some random 20 province kd. Were 25m and weve won the last 7 wars in a row

Stats as avian when war starts: 95 mod opa (1 off spec/acre for dragon), 40 mod dpa elites out, ~6.5 mod tpa, 0.8-1 raw wpa

Edit. Starting opa is a bit low but the offense doesnt drop during war. It will go up when age goes forward and housing science gets up

So, you get your nice 7 mod TPA, and then you get destroyed with double taps by another avian - who doesn't really give a crap about your thieves, cause he has 40-50% of your mod tpa, CS, WTs w/o even trying too hard. gg

[BlazingChicken]

So, you get your nice 7 mod TPA, and then you get destroyed with double taps by another avian - who doesn't really give a crap about your thieves, cause he has 40-50% of your mod tpa, CS, WTs w/o even trying too hard. gg

The avian doing the double tapping would quickly become landfat and as such become more open to mass ops. While the avian who got double tapped can hit back with an ambush + a trad march, all the while having a huge boost in TPA prowress. A hybrid avian A/t doesn't need to rely on economy based buildings nor aid from fellow kingdom mates in the event of being chained, simply due to the increased TPA, which also allows you to rob pretty much everyone around your networth at that point. Its all situational anyhow.

Also since you don't have to pay wages for thieves, you can maintain a slightly higher draft than a heavy attacker.

[Kemia]

So, you get your nice 7 mod TPA, and then you get destroyed with double taps by another avian - who doesn't really give a crap about your thieves, cause he has 40-50% of your mod tpa, CS, WTs w/o even trying too hard. gg

If he is running rogue and he gets dropped he can easily Propaganda the enemy military and ambush them, just because an attacker has double offense/defense of said province who they attack is nothing! given the right ability ambushing and hitting you back would be just as effective as your double tap if not greater because he can not only damage you with ops and replenish his military you destroyed, he can hit you back and even harder and if he was running elf/rogue he could pitfall you and fireball you too hell before opping to help him in dropping you much more effectively (a/t/m hybrid is hard to do yes!! Given all put into retrospect running a 60% draft + raw wpa with rogue personality your Be would not suffer very much, its quite able to do so)

[Ramsig]

So, you get your nice 7 mod TPA, and then you get destroyed with double taps by another avian - who doesn't really give a crap about your thieves, cause he has 40-50% of your mod tpa, CS, WTs w/o even trying too hard. gg

... the tpa is for stealing money for economy -.- Why should I push the hardest target? Its not 1v1 its 25v25... I steal from the ones that have weaker thief defense. Whoever happens to be landfat with money.

[Kemia]

... the tpa is for stealing money for economy -.- Why should I push the hardest target? Its not 1v1 its 25v25... I steal from the ones that have weaker thief defense. Whoever happens to be landfat with money.

I think he is just generalizing

[Realest]

fight the good fight people. lets continue to run a strat 15 ages outdated.

[the great kN herself]

fight the good fight people. lets continue to run a strat 15 ages outdated.

Ghettos are ghetto for a reason.

[TommyB]

Has there been any progress made in war strategy during those 15 ages ? And how would you even measure that progress seeing that every age is different ?

Anyway I don't quite see the point of this discussion. Hybrid is just a word. And I agree that many provinces who try to play "Hybrid" end up crappy because they don't have enough offense.

On the other hand, it could be argued that every Elf who attacks should be a "Hybrid" because otherwise he should have been an Avian instead.

[the great kN herself]

On the other hand, it could be argued that every Elf who attacks should be a "Hybrid" because otherwise he should have been an Avian instead.

Fact: Bishop hates Elves.

[nooblet]

You guys are trying to make running your province into a semantic argument.
It is true that Elf kinda sucks now, but that's a racial imbalance... and there other reasons to pick Elf besides offensive magic, and Avians' drawbacks are considerable penalties for an attacker. But it's not like an Avian can't pump wpa, get nub-chained and still be in range to cast ops. Elves are just a little better at it.

[Persain]

The avian doing the double tapping would quickly become landfat and as such become more open to mass ops. While the avian who got double tapped can hit back with an ambush + a trad march, all the while having a huge boost in TPA prowress. A hybrid avian A/t doesn't need to rely on economy based buildings nor aid from fellow kingdom mates in the event of being chained, simply due to the increased TPA, which also allows you to rob pretty much everyone around your networth at that point. Its all situational anyhow.

while i am apt to tear this apart (i will) i do have to say that in a pure ghetto war of all max gaining war with no annon hits and no kd coordination this is true. your right in a 1v1 after going down in acres the hybrid indeed does more total damage and should eventually catch-up in land. However most avains should be entering war with a high % of WT so even after a few double taps they should still be able to run 10% WT and CS and thus they aren't that much more open to theif ops so its going to take a long time for that extra tpa to really matter.

In addtion in a normal war that 7 mod tpa avain is going to be one of the first people chained (hybrids are fun to chain), and chained hard such (1000=>300, 2000=>500 and so on) that if they want to keep any offence/def they are going to release their theives and that instantly negates that edge you thought they had. If howerver, they keep theives they either cant attack or have under 3k mod off and every attacker in the kd will be doubling them every attack with spare offence. You'll quickly see that hybrid avian drop to sub 200 acres and then loose the thieves regardless.

[BlazingChicken]

while i am apt to tear this apart (i will) i do have to say that in a pure ghetto war of all max gaining war with no annon hits and no kd coordination this is true. your right in a 1v1 after going down in acres the hybrid indeed does more total damage and should eventually catch-up in land. However most avains should be entering war with a high % of WT so even after a few double taps they should still be able to run 10% WT and CS and thus they aren't that much more open to theif ops so its going to take a long time for that extra tpa to really matter.

In addtion in a normal war that 7 mod tpa avain is going to be one of the first people chained (hybrids are fun to chain), and chained hard such (1000=>300, 2000=>500 and so on) that if they want to keep any offence/def they are going to release their theives and that instantly negates that edge you thought they had. If howerver, they keep theives they either cant attack or have under 3k mod off and every attacker in the kd will be doubling them every attack with spare offence. You'll quickly see that hybrid avian drop to sub 200 acres and then loose the thieves regardless.

The CS can easily be MVed due to the quick drop in WPA. Although I do agree a deep-chained hybrid would quickly lose its only edge. Anyhow its all situational as I said before.

A Hybrid's main weakness is its lower offense compared to a heavy attacker. But, that gap can be slowly closed in on depending on how much science you have. If you have +70% in crime science, then you would be running around 3 Raw TPA, if you have say +100%, you could get away with running around 2.5 Raw TPA. The ability to rob people around means you won't need to be running banks either or rely on aid. Not running banks means you can run more TGs to get your offense closer to a heavy attacker, or you can could put it into more GS. You can also lower the amount of towers you run to as low as say, 2% or 3%, because you will be able to steal runes. The same also applies to farms.
I also repeat, you do not pay thieves wages, so you will lose less money in the case of a deep chain, than a heavy attacker (if you're not logged in of course).
As for keeping thieves after getting deep chained....you can just release most of them or you keep some (less raw TPA than you started out with due to the bump up in science), and benefit from the now even greater effect from your crime science, but in the case that you have to release your thieves in order to keep enough offense to be useful, then you will have a similar military to a heavy attacker who got chained in the same way anyhow. I'd go further to say that a hybrid A/t would recover faster from a chain, because a hybrid is more likely to have maintained a positive trade balance, whilst the heavy attacker would probably have a negative trade balance.

I'm not proposing hybrid A/ts as replacement for heavy attackers. (obviously there won't be enough targets to steal from if you have too many hybrids in war, so about 3 is good) They are mainly a support role that can steal consistently throughout the war and without requiring aid from fellow kingdom members. (in most cases the hybrid would be one providing aid to fellow heavy attackers, and also runes to T/Ms, as well as funding dragons)
Stealing is different from ops such as greed/riots, because they not only take away from the enemy kingdom, but also strengthen your side.