humans ns or prop?

[Elurin]

It shows no such thing. 590 ns'd means nothing if the guy has 10k solds. You need all the data Topsy asked for in addition to information about the province's military to make a comparison. Sh*t in, Sh*t out is a fundamental principle of statistics; don't try to base an analysis on numbers that means nothing.

Also, read what Red said again. A good advice is to stop trying to suboptimize on every op, take a step back and view the larger picture. Always put a clear goal with the province over next 12 hours or so, then review what resources you have available (no, not only your stealth/tpa but for the kd as a whole) and design the optimal way to reach the goal - again as a kd. Quite often NS is the correct way forward, at other time's it's prop. People who restrict themselves by putting up limitations ("this way of doing something is not good and I will never consider it") will never excel.

[Topsy]

I don't understand what you mean. If those stacks are one number, then it's a stupid good return, a different number and its a meh return. Also, we have no idea what the NS numbers would have been at that size based on the info....so there's absolutely no way you could possibly say that those numbers prove anything about prop v. NS.

Edit: Elurin is a ninja, that was meant for Kuhan.

The problem with prop on humans isn't the damage relative to ns. It's the ppa that can't go toward elites.

[KuhaN]

Ok, im going to ask this question and i want a serious reply.

Whens the last time you guys have played rogue or have done a prop wave yourselves? Instead of reading other ppls copy and pastes?

Every single time ive done prop waves against people around my networth ive gotten results very similar to the data displayed in this thread. Every single time. The only difference when their army is home is that you get ospecs if they have any. Elite gains are always sh*t regardless.

-Wizards usually two digits.
-Soldiers are irrelevant (wasted op whenever u get this).
-Thieves can be good or bad depending on targets tpa.
-Elites usually two digits.
-Specialists is the best bit, but remember u get both ospecs and dspecs (ospecs is irrelevant prior to chaining as well).

So even if we be realistic and say you ns'd 250-300 specs each op, its much better than prop results (he obviously doesnt have 10k solds, obviously not even 1k, did u see the propd solds). Be realistic.

[KuhaN]

Ok, i agree there are situations when prop is better. But those are rare. You would need a target that will meet all of the following conditions (on top of that good coordination):

-army home
-a good amount of everything, ospecs, dspecs, elites, thieves
-no wts

Even then id argue going with just nightstrikes, because like ive said over and over again nightstrikes/props are done only on provs youre going to hit/chain afterwards. So your goal is to kill their def, not anything else.

Answer to OPs question: NS is better.

[Topsy]

Ok, im going to ask this question and i want a serious reply.

Whens the last time you guys have played rogue or have done a prop wave yourselves? Instead of reading other ppls copy and pastes?

This age.

Edit: as a note, why would ns be better if you are only using ns/prop for defense(which is a good question in itself)? I would say one of the best things about NS is that it kills away elites.

[Topsy]

The best reason for why you should go ns over prop as human, is that you can ns/riots like crazy with 3rawtpa, but you need more(5ish) for prop. This is a really good reason, but it's an odd answer to op.

[KuhaN]

This age.

Edit: as a note, why would ns be better if you are only using ns/prop for defense(which is a good question in itself)? I would say one of the best things about NS is that it kills away elites.

Certainly if youre playing rogue this age then you can provide us with honest and accurate examples from the top of your head? What kind of results did u get from doing prop waves? Answer plz.

To answer your question, because many kingdoms assign ns targets so you can chain them afterwards. Why else would you assign a ns target? To lower their opa? No. Your goal is to lower their defense so you can do better chains.

So essentially what you guys are arguing is that prop can be better than ns to lower a provs defense prior to a chain. Which it can, but in rare situations like i stated in my previous post.

[Topsy]

OK. Prop doesn't really have a ceiling, but the higher your rawtpa the closer it gets to having consistency near the top of what could be considered a "soft ceiling". For specs, these gains are about 10% of stack(!), for elites its about 2%. Relative NW is almost more important than rawtpa, as it in effect brings down the soft ceiling SUBSTANTIALLY. I'm really not sure what the numbers are for soldiers(their bad), wizards(requires me remembering to ask targets what there wizards were at the time), or theives(but honestly, if they have high theives, then I don't want to be propping them, because even ith rogue TD losses from sending everything are painful). There a few other funny things that go beyond these numbers(stack selection for example), but I'm not 100% confident I have down yet what it is.

I should point out that if there's anything in the formulas that make the % go down as the raw numbers go up(shouldn't) i have no way of knowing yet.

It's exactly what Realest said, in a vacuum between the two, prop obliterates. But hybrids have a lot of issues mechanically, and having so many ppa in tpa is a major drag. Moreover, although WT in general are aweful for things like NS, it actually is really solid against prop.

There are way more times to use prop as a human/rogue than your saying Kuhan, but in general, its just not worth sacrificing the 20 or so opa.

[KuhaN]

OK. Prop doesn't really have a ceiling, but the higher your rawtpa the closer it gets to having consistency near the top of what could be considered a "soft ceiling". For specs, these gains are about 10% of stack(!), for elites its about 2%. Relative NW is almost more important than rawtpa, as it in effect brings down the soft ceiling SUBSTANTIALLY. I'm really not sure what the numbers are for soldiers(their bad), wizards(requires me remembering to ask targets what there wizards were at the time), or theives(but honestly, if they have high theives, then I don't want to be propping them, because even ith rogue TD losses from sending everything are painful). There a few other funny things that go beyond these numbers(stack selection for example), but I'm not 100% confident I have down yet what it is.

I should point out that if there's anything in the formulas that make the % go down as the raw numbers go up(shouldn't) i have no way of knowing yet.

It's exactly what Realest said, in a vacuum between the two, prop obliterates. But hybrids have a lot of issues mechanically, and having so many ppa in tpa is a major drag. Moreover, although WT in general are aweful for things like NS, it actually is really solid against prop.

There are way more times to use prop as a human/rogue than your saying Kuhan, but in general, its just not worth sacrificing the 20 or so opa.

Realest has a point that prop does more damage than ns, but thats very broad and generalized. There has to be a reason why youre doing props over ns in specific situations. Id like to hear those scenarios.

When do you use prop and why? Nightstrikes are used specifically to make better chain targets. Would prop really be a better alternative? So far nobody has given me a clear scenario + goal other than Red's, which i didnt agree with and i have already stated why.

Edit: If you hit the ceiling of 10% /stack then that is pretty substantial. It makes it pretty close to doing nightstrikes imo. I didnt know it gets that high for specs. If you can reach that number then there are probably a bit more situations when doing props is better.

[KaosAngel]

I have gotten more than 10% which is why I've been wondering overall which is more disabling to the province on the receiving end. I've also gotten more elites on one op than total troops killed on one ns, but with prop you're not getting elites everytime. Against an a/m or a/t, prop is hitting their defense, offense and reducing their ops substantially which ends up helping the entire kingdom - less mv's are needed, faeries can use their mana on something else, the opposing kingdom is failing on their ns, and the lower tpa,wpa provinces in your kingdom end up with a better chance of succeeding on their ops. Oh, and the opposing kingdom can't hit as much since they've lost opa.

As far as sacrificing opa in order to get the tpa necessary to prop, hybrids are what they are. If you are really after some heavy hitting ops with attacking on the side, you're going to have a high tpa and sacrifice the opa. Certainly, you wouldn't want every rogue in your kingdom to do so but if you plan on being a heavy hitting attacker you're also not going to be a rogue.

And Kuhan, I've been either t/m, a/t, or a/m every age I've played but 1 and part of another. My first age was the last age of boats. Until last age, NS over prop was almost always my preference unless you'd already won and were going after honor (cavat, every strategy needs to be molded to the opposing kingdom's strengths and weaknesses). But now with the extra damage for humans, I'm not so sure that's necessarily the case anymore which is why I was wondering what everyone else's experiences were.

And if anyone is keeping statistics, please send me a copy :)

[citadela01]

I am fan of ns over prop in general, if for no other reason than for its reliability. prop is much easier to twart with wt/pat. that said there is one major reason for atacker to consider prop over ns, maintaining tpa. hybrids tend to screw their own oping potential pretty fast with uncontroled growth and prop really goes a long way there.

[Anri]

Its all about prop-ortions. Nub discussion.

[Elurin]

To answer your Q Kuhan, I've won wars with several rogues in kd (4 pure T/M rogues last age, 3 this one) for a bunch of years, and have tried various strategies on a kd-wide perspective. If you've not coordinated strategies I can understand why all your talks are from 1 provs perspective and suboptimizing. Provinces don't win wars, however, kd's do and prop is often useful in a kd wide strategy.

[marve]

my two cents... you also have to consider not only the loss to the person being oped, but also the gains of the person doing the oping. you cant say one is better than the other strictly from the losses you are gaining. lets say that those 15 props stated earlier happened right now in a war. that person not only took a large amount of defense/offense from the person (depending if army was home) but they also gained a ton. they are now able to take those 2k specs or however many, and send them at the dragon that is on them. are you going to tell me that the 10k points that were just killed on the dragon dont count when weighing in the two ops? especially when the 10k points were free and in no way affected the province sending them? each op has their time and place. its tough to directly compare them to one another, because they dont do exactly the same thing. however, if i could only have my kd mates do one thing for the rest of the age, prop or ns, id pick prop. not only do you get double bonuses but you also get more honor which in turn will raise your rank and thus your stats.

[Persain]

It shows no such thing. 590 ns'd means nothing if the guy has 10k solds. You need all the data Topsy asked for in addition to information about the province's military to make a comparison. Sh*t in, Sh*t out is a fundamental principle of statistics; don't try to base an analysis on numbers that means nothing.

from the data i put the guy didnt have 10k solds or when the prop hit solds u would of gotten more than "28 soldiers" read the data and u can see that.

Ok, im going to ask this question and i want a serious reply.

Whens the last time you guys have played rogue or have done a prop wave yourselves? Instead of reading other ppls copy and pastes?

I never have( done a pure prop wave), becasue i always thought it was a waste of a op. Then when i saw this age's changed i thought human A/T hybird might make a nice core attacker if prop>>ns. Thus the reason i looked at the data.

Certainly if youre playing rogue this age then you can provide us with honest and accurate examples from the top of your head? What kind of results did u get from doing prop waves? Answer plz.

Exactly if your really trying to calculated it gather the data, all i can say is that i did that and saw propr<ns deleted the data and moved on.

my two cents... you also have to consider not only the loss to the person being oped, but also the gains of the person doing the oping. you cant say one is better than the other strictly from the losses you are gaining. lets say that those 15 props stated earlier happened right now in a war. that person not only took a large amount of defense/offense from the person (depending if army was home) but they also gained a ton. they are now able to take those 2k specs or however many, and send them at the dragon that is on them. are you going to tell me that the 10k points that were just killed on the dragon dont count when weighing in the two ops? especially when the 10k points were free and in no way affected the province sending them? each op has their time and place. its tough to directly compare them to one another, because they dont do exactly the same thing. however, if i could only have my kd mates do one thing for the rest of the age, prop or ns, id pick prop. not only do you get double bonuses but you also get more honor which in turn will raise your rank and thus your stats.

This is the argument for doing prop waves. However u are NOT talking about pure damage dealt but total kd gain. And from this point of view the op may be usefull. IF however your goal is to use your t/m or a/t to soften up a target for chaining/completely shelling them out then you want MAX damage done to army.

The only way prop>ns in terms of damage done to target is IF you wanted to AW the target AND NS the targets army and thus you prop a/m with full army home. again that doesnt rule out uses of the op but it does negate it as a substitute for NS when your goal is damage to target.