Undeads v/s Orcs Attackers
I'm reading tons of posts here about orcs can't seem to find much about Undeads, I'm monarch in the ghetto , most are saying UD/Cleric, just want to hear some on how orcs verses undeads which would prove to be the better choice, and plz keep explanations in laymans terms, all this tech talk kinda loses me, thx
i personally dont like combo'ing ud/cleric just because ur not maximizing race/pers combos. ud already has 50% less losses on attacks, so if you choose cleric you'd only get an additional 25% on attacks, whereas all other races you'd get full 50%.
if this thread is about undead and orcs, this coming age i still think ud is stronger. however it depends on how many wars u get in, because the more wars u can win the more science u get the more orc benefits from the science.
but, being in the ghetto u probably want to stick to undead just for ease of playing: no farms, no plague on ur own prov just spreading it, 50% attack losses. pair it up with tact/warrior most likely.
HTH
Both have 9-point offensive Elites and 5-point Dspecs - equal there. Both gain Elites through combat - automatic for Undead, credits for Orcs.
Undead have -50% offensive losses, but -25% Sciences - which means lower population, lower BE, lower gains, lower everything except offensive casualties.
Orcs have +20% gains and 33% higher Sciences (relative to Undeads) - more population, more BE, MUCH higher gains, etc.
And while Orcs don't get much benefit from TpA and WpA (due to -75% offensive results), there are no penalties to their defensive aspect - so Crime and Channeling are still worthwhile.
If offensive magic and thievery is important, Undead comes out ahead despite the Science penalties. If attacking is your priority, Orc wins hands-down.
The only people who never make mistakes are those who never try to accomplish anything.
i'm ud/tact now for this age, run 15-16% hosps, seldom lose more than 200 troops on attacks , running all elite and def. specs, has worked decent, was thinking as cleric i could open 16% of my build from hosps into GS, since currently i have none, and ghetto monarchs seem to be big chaining targets :)
Problems with Undead for Age 54 vs Age 53:
~ Elite NW increased by 7%
~ Lost War Spoils
~ Lost Nightmares
~ Science penalty increased 25%
But they got Thief Ops back!
Strengths of Orcs for Age 54 vs Age 53:
~ Elite NW also went up by 7%, but still lower than Undead
~ Lost BE penalty
~ Gained Shadowlight
~ Gained Reflect Magic
Offensive magic and thievery got nerfed even harder, but what Attacker does much with that anyways?
The only people who never make mistakes are those who never try to accomplish anything.
do orcs still get the same benefits as far as intels based one tpa, being in the ghetto i find myself posting more than 50& of the intels, this is only my 2nd age since returning to utopia , stopped playing after first age of battlefeilds, whole new game since then, thx for advice , it is very much appreciated.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't the new orc changes only affect offensive spells and not thievery ops? So if you were planning on a hybrid A/t you wouldn't be affected by the orc traits?Originally Posted by Twyla
Last edited by Hadd; 03-05-2012 at 03:02. Reason: Premature posting
In age 53, Undead Cleric was a very good pick due to the extra general - highly effective in chain wars - and the ability to skip building hospitals entirely. Undeads without hospitals will get violated too easily when they're chained. Stacking the undead and cleric bonuses on offense is not bad, because undead elites are worth preserving as much as possible - the cost and time of troop replacement is much more than you'd think. The downside of cleric is that it's bonus isn't worth stacking with hospitals most of the time, unlike the bonuses of other personalities which get better when stacked with the appropriate buildings.
For this age - orc vs. undead is hard to say. Orc gets better results, UD is easier to maintain, puts up slightly higher peak offense and defense, and a little more flexible in what it can do. You could use both, hope that plague connects and that your Orcs can take advantage of it. Both combine with the same personalities - Warrior, Tactician, and to a lesser extent Cleric all work.
I'm not sure if the gains penalty applies to intelligence operations - i.e., if an orc has to send more thieves to get accurate intel than everyone else. I've only had one instance where I was affected by a thief gains modifier, when making an out-of-war hit, and the attack bounced despite fresh intel and sending 10% over the throne room defense assuming armies in.
what about orc/cleric verses orc/tact
with cleric no hosps
with tact ,thinking i'll need hosps, but better conversions and intel accuracy may be the better choice for kdm overall
honestly was already thinking orcs to be the better choice, is the reason for this thread
Nope - they can still gather intel at normal levels (or should, as I'm reading it). They can even run offensive ops, but the -75% damage makes that pointless.
Warrior and Tactician are the key Personalities for both Races, though an Undead Sage (to counter the Science penalty, for the most part) and Orc Cleric should be fairly close apart from the gains factor.
Orcs will be popular chain targets, so the 50% losses and Animate Dead feature could be more bane than blessing. Tactician (-15% Attack Times and +50% Credits) or Warrior (+1 General and +15% OME in War) are much better choices.
Last edited by Twyla; 03-05-2012 at 03:12.
The only people who never make mistakes are those who never try to accomplish anything.
Orc/tactician probably gets the nod over Orc/cleric, for damage output. Orc/cleric can preserve more of its elites when it inevitably gets ambushed, and can afford to skip hospitals which opens up a few more building options, but in ghetto kingdoms it's hard to know how well people will take advantage of that.
-50% losses and Animate Dead is nothing but good when you are chained - anyone who tells you otherwise is bs-ing you. The worst case scenario is that troops desert that would have died outright from the attack, so you lose nothing. Also note that basic soldiers at home desert before anything else, so the animate dead effect preserves more of your valuable units. Even though undead have Animate Dead naturally, they can't AD every hit they suffer when being chained, so the cleric's animate dead is not lost for them either.
Per the Wiki...
2-3 hits stand a good chance of putting you over 115% Population even without the bonuses from Cleric. Cut losses by 50% and have those come back as Soldiers and you're looking at over 120% population. Any Elites that come out of training are gone, wasting your free credits. The defense specs that Cleric saved are also gone. And while the Soldiers will protect your other troops to some degree, there most likely won't be enough of them to avoid losing trained military.Effects and Triggers for Overpopulation
Note: these effects stack.
Population exceeds Max Population: Your peasants will leave and no new peasants will be born. Peasants leave at a rate of 7% of total peasants or the amount you are overpopulated by, whichever of the two is lower.
Population exceeds Max Population by 15%: Your army will refuse to attack and your troops (including thieves) will begin to desert. Troops desert at a rate of 20% the amount you are overpopulated over 115% by, calculated after peasants leave. Troop losses are calculated on all troops but only troops that are home will leave (troops out are immune from desertion, but will influence the total amount of troops that leave). These losses are calculated individually for each troop type. If you have sufficient soldiers then they can desert in place of a particular troop type.
Population exceeds Max Population by 20%: Your thieves will refuse to work.
Population exceeds Max Population by 35%: Your peasants will riot and your income is reduced by 50%.
Even in a best-case scenario, where the extra Soldiers succeed in protecting all your trained forces, you're still held back from attacking again if your troops come back anytime soon from being more than 15% overpopped.
Though it's only when chained that Cleric becomes a weakness rather than a strength, the bonuses from Warrior and Tactician can never become a liability.
Last edited by Twyla; 03-05-2012 at 03:34.
The only people who never make mistakes are those who never try to accomplish anything.
I am well aware of overpopulation mechanics, which doesn't disprove anything I've said.
Additionally, I have played Cleric this age, and chained many clerics, and I can assure you - clerics are provinces I would not want to chain if I can help it, unless I know for sure I can force a deep chain and enough overpopulation to put them on near-zero defense. Halfassed-chains against clerics are a terrible mistake in ghetto kingdoms, and more often then not chains break down at the ghetto level against cleric provinces more than any other. Better to ns and fireball the hell out of them and leave them fat, where their -losses is a lot less relevant and the cleric doesn't have much else to fall back on.
Point there. I'd forgotten he'd mentioned being in a ghetto.
The only people who never make mistakes are those who never try to accomplish anything.
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