Undeads v/s Orcs Attackers

[nooblet]

Ghetto or not, it doesn't change the mathematics as to why Clerics have some resistance against being chained. It's the same at the top tier, except top kingdoms are able to chain well enough to make it less relevant.

[Maxin]

nooblet, you are making it clear. You are so correct!

[Bishop]

Though it's only when chained that Cleric becomes a weakness rather than a strength, the bonuses from Warrior and Tactician can never become a liability.

This isn't really true. Clerics bonuses allows you to choose what you release. This isn't a weakness.

[nooblet]

Twyla; check this thread: http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...ation-question

[Landro]

Though it's only when chained that Cleric becomes a weakness rather than a strength, the bonuses from Warrior and Tactician can never become a liability.

You have no idea how wrong you are.

With a normal chain, def dies fast because of PF + BG. This allows enemies to send less on later hits which means they can probably make extra hits. With Cleric your def dies at a much slower rate which will then slow down the rate at which your enemy can multi tap you. This slows down chains and that is ofc a good thing. When troops desert, soldiers will desert instead of regular troops if enough are available so the extra soldiers will prevent your important troops from deserting which will further serve to slow down the chain against you.


---edit---
As NoseBlood pointed out, I was wrong about Warrior. I was thinking of this age's Warrior

[NoseBlood]

You have no idea how wrong you are.

Warrior is a liability when you're getting chained because you lose more pop bonus from honor which aggravates your overpop %

News alert! Warriors dont get benefits from honor next age.

[nooblet]

He's talking about this age, and generally speaking any race/personality with an honor bonus... though it applies just as much when a high honor province loses their rank, too. One of the many reasons why province honor is a nub trap.

[NoseBlood]

if you get chained, 6% extra pop wont save you.

[lastunicorn]

It's not about being saved, it's how hard you are to overpop. If you only lose 15% of your land, but also lose 6% of max pop due to honor loss, you lose troops to overpop without them really trying.

[Tha Legend]

all this saving reminds me of E40

[Twyla]

It's not about being saved, it's how hard you are to overpop. If you only lose 15% of your land, but also lose 6% of max pop due to honor loss, you lose troops to overpop without them really trying.

This is the point I was getting at. With 50% combat losses, half of which are raised as Soldiers (assuming 33% of your population is defense) you're only losing 0.65% your population vs 2.6% each hit (in addition to the 1% peasants). After, say, ten hits you've still got 84.7% your population vs 69.3% with only 36% of your original lands - 100% overpopulated vs 60% (factoring for the boost to Housing Science).

[citadela01]

Your logic baffles me Twyla.

You do understand ofc that problem with overpopulation is causing troops desertion right ? In another words you are basing your downplay of cleric on the fact he will loose troops to desertion faster than other personalities, and reason they will be deserting at a slower pace for other personality is they will allready be dead from combat loses ...

I wont get further into misinterpretation of game mechanics/strats you seem to harbour ... just try to realize the above apsurdity of your logic.

to summarize, only thing harder to chain than cleric is cleric with town watch cast.

[lastunicorn]

Let's say you have three provinces you can chain, race and defense are the same:
A) tactician or warrior with no hospitals, cast pitfalls, BG, BL, and emerald dragon
B) cleric with no additional modifiers
C) War hero with Marquis honor benefits

You're telling me you choose B because they don't lose as many dspecs when you attack them?

[gergnub]

This forum baffles me at times.

[Twyla]

Even a non-Cleric will likely be forced to release troops (even with higher casualties) in order to survive a solid chaining. While a Cleric retains more defense specs, they'll just wind up having to release them anyways - gaining nothing over the non-Cleric.

Yes, Cleric will deter the time when other attackers can switch from doubles to triples/quads, but the attacks will come nonetheless - nothing they can do will prevent this. The best they can accomplish is delaying when the opposing Kingdom turns their attention to someone else.

The reduced losses makes it far easier to get them over 135% population, which completely locks them down, and it takes them 20%-30% longer to recover. The 50% income in addition to losing WAY more Peasants per tick can quickly render them unable to pay their military even AFTER they finally get below 115% population. What good does it do to have 1000 OpA if you can't attack with it?

Because they can't attack (even if paid) when more than 15% over-popped, the Elites that Cleric saved will be lost anyways - desertions, released, killed, whatever.

Additionally, they lose peasants so much faster than a non-Cleric. Assuming they don't get PK'd or are running an insane amount of Banks, they won't have the income to pay their military. Though they can get well-timed Aid and still attack, their ME and BE will plummet nonetheless. 30% of the ME from TGs/Forts (60% BE vs 90%) and 17% of the ME from Wages is gone - they're losing 20%-35% of their OP/DP vs the 2% that Cleric preserves.


Outside of War (and being chained), Cleric has a lot going for it - not arguing that in the least. And though they're a bit harder to chain, being chained is a lot more devastating than it is for a non-Cleric. The only real way to lessen this is to be extremely active and releasing the troops that Cleric preserved - thereby completely nullifying the benefits of being a Cleric in the first place.

Please correct me if you still feel I'm wrong, but I've run the numbers every way I can think of and they all come to the same conclusion - a chained Cleric is toast.